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Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

theguardian.com

161–170 of 255 posts

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They considered an attack that would have killed ~1M people, presumably mainly civilians? sigh smh

Americans lives are worth much more than some stupid Iraqi civilians.

To Americans? Yes, they are. We are all hypocrites at some level.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#164
post #147
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand why you assume that the risks were not disclosed to the government. In my eyes, it's way more likely that the government decided to go ahead anyway. This was one of Saddam Hussein's prestige projects - telling him that it couldn't be done could've been fatal.

So, crazy idea (and completely inapplicable here, because dictatorship). Is there any government in the word that has an empowered "science" branch of government as a check and balance? I'm not suggesting science is apolitical, but I feel like there's some merit to "We wanted to build a broken dam because {political considerations}, but the {science branch} vetoed it." Kind of like a Supreme Court, except informed by…

That's an interesting thought. I believe the EPA, FDA, OSHA, etc, are supposed to be the quality control science branches of the government. But instead of preventative maintenance, they just dole out fines after some violation.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#165
post #147
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand why you assume that the risks were not disclosed to the government. In my eyes, it's way more likely that the government decided to go ahead anyway. This was one of Saddam Hussein's prestige projects - telling him that it couldn't be done could've been fatal.

So, crazy idea (and completely inapplicable here, because dictatorship). Is there any government in the word that has an empowered "science" branch of government as a check and balance? I'm not suggesting science is apolitical, but I feel like there's some merit to "We wanted to build a broken dam because {political considerations}, but the {science branch} vetoed it." Kind of like a Supreme Court, except informed by…

In practice, the administrative agency apparatus works this way in the US. Projects go through things like environmental impact assessments, unless they're explicitly exempted. Of course, calling it a "science branch" is wildly optimistic; even theoretically objective assessments are skewed towards the favored result.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may or may not have the government they want , but they certainly have the government they deserve . Every nation of people does. If you're not willing to stand up and fight when a tiny number of people is oppressing you, then why do you deserve anything better? Who else is supposed to liberate you? Do you think that you're entitled to having a bunch of foreigners come risk their lives to liberate you from your…

At some point, a government will have an insurmountable military advantage, against which any resistance by its population is futile.

> At some point, a government will have an insurmountable military advantage, against which any resistance by its population is futile.

Most successful resistance by populations against the government have had the resisting part of the population overlapping the military. (Conversely, most popular resistance where this has not been the case has failed.)

So this is, generally, already the case, but in a sense somewhat less significant than is implied.

I suppose if you have an entirely automated and tamper-proof, self-maintaining and reproducing, military with the senior government decision makers as the only humans in the loop the situation becomes a bit different and there becomes a qualitative difference where popular resistance can no longer spread to include the military.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#167

To add to my prior comment, it seems like expending military resources to retake this area is a waste, since the citizens there support ISIS. Instead of getting soldiers killed fighting to "liberate" people who probably don't want to be liberated, maybe they should have just dropped a bunch of leaflets on Mosul, explaining that the dam isn't being maintained under ISIS control, and without maintenance will fail in a…

So if they want to avoid this, it's up to them to rise up and revolt against ISIS. If they don't, oh well. If you're not willing to fight for your own survival and freedom, then maybe you don't deserve it, and you really have no right to expect others to do the dirty work for you and hand you these things on a silver platter. And these people back in 2003 were asking for the USA-led coalition to invade their own coun…

Unless you're a GOP voter (and not a Trump voter), then it's obvious that in 2003, Iraqis were not asking for their country to be invaded.

However, since we made such a mess of it before, what makes you think we're going to do any better with another invasion and setting up another unpopular government? The people in that region don't like the government we set up because the Shias are too powerful; they want a government like what they had before, where the Sunnis have all the power, and the Shias and Kurds get stomped on. Are you willing to give them that government? If not, you're not going to get their support, and ISIS (or similar) is.

You may claim that the West has a responsibility to help, but I claim that the West cannot help, and that there is no way for us, a bunch of outsiders, to make the situation better. Only the people there can fix the problem for themselves. We cannot do it for them. If we try, we will fail, and they will not appreciate it or agree with our methods.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#168
post #147
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand why you assume that the risks were not disclosed to the government. In my eyes, it's way more likely that the government decided to go ahead anyway. This was one of Saddam Hussein's prestige projects - telling him that it couldn't be done could've been fatal.

So, crazy idea (and completely inapplicable here, because dictatorship). Is there any government in the word that has an empowered "science" branch of government as a check and balance? I'm not suggesting science is apolitical, but I feel like there's some merit to "We wanted to build a broken dam because {political considerations}, but the {science branch} vetoed it." Kind of like a Supreme Court, except informed by…

I wish! Though implementation would be tricky and might heavily politicize science in a bad way (as opposed to a good way; which could also happen). The closest I've seen anywhere to that is in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy.

Here's an excerpt from the "Martian Constitution" in the accompanying book "The Martians": """All laws passed by the congress shall also be subject to review by the constitutional and environmental courts, and a veto by these courts cannot be overridden, but shall be grounds for rewriting the law if the congress sees fit, after which the process of passing the law shall begin again."""

I found the rest here: http://pastebin.com/YeR74Yyb

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilding Mosul is more lucrative that maintenance on Mosul dam?

With the added benefit of being a "hero" when they go in to rebuild in such a dangerous area.

And 'hero' pay, no doubt.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised that some big infrastructure company like Halli or Bechtel didn't see an opportunity to scheme some business from this.

Some of those guys were severely burned by the Iraqi Adventure. SFAIK, Halli divested of Brown-Root. Big Engineering like that might as well be politics. And this makes me think of the St. Francis Dam. "It's Chinatown, Jake."

I watched that movie while coming down (ok, failing to come down) from my first acid trip. Not the right choice. Great movie though.
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