161–170 of 236 posts
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> Where is it that late-career engineers are barely pulling in six figures? Almost everywhere in the Midwest, except Chicago perhaps. Unless your remote working, low cost of living doesn't come without a big catch.
6 figures is the exception, but it's far from impossible in Milwaukee and Madison writing code.
"Say, ‘I’m open to a salary commensurate with the job,” recommended Blake Nations, a former recruiter who was laid off and then founded Over50JobBoard.com. “And if they keep going, ask: ‘What do you expect to pay someone with my experience and education for this position?'" This. If you're asked early on just flip the question back to them. Companies don't publish salaries for jobs because they're afraid of turning p…
That advice doesn't apply at all when you are going through a recruiter who is or plays dumb: "I just need you to fill in this form so we can proceed. [I don't care if if makes you mistrust me and management, and you come in on Day 1 suspicious and with low morale]" Big companies, at least, have a relatively streamlined process to tilt the negotiations in their favor as much as they can systemically.
As for big companies, I've never had any of them even notice that I didn't fill in that field. So that's never been an issue.
If you do that then you have two things in your favor already..
1. you are cheaper to hire because there are no recruitment feeds associated with you.
2. you showed some initiative to zero them out, and you demonstrated that you have creative writing skills which are an important trait in software development
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I've found this to be an excellent way to waste a bunch of time by getting far along in the process, only to find out near the end that the company won't make an offer that's anywhere near my requirements. While I don't like being the first to name a number, I also haven't found putting the discussion off until the end of the process to be beneficial. I've been on the hiring side as a manager in a number of companies…
> I've been on the hiring side as a manager in a number of companies, and I've NEVER seen a situation where a candidate was so uniquely awesome that the company was willing to make an offer drastically larger than their normal range for that role. A bit more? Sure. Some more stock or something? Often. But not, say, 50% more salary than anyone else at that level is getting. Fyi, at $DayJob we have one guy at my level…
Why? The underperformer w/high-salary was brought in by some idiot manager x years ago - that manager has since lost their job - but this ok performer still pretty good and still in their job.
Have had rock stars contact the company - willing to work for 50% under market and we'd be crazy not to put them on. Without even having an open position at the time.
It is ALL negotiation. Don't assume there is solid logic and "fair" salaries.
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I would not tell recruiters my current salary, ($75K) but I did tell him my target salary, which was market rate for a mid-level Ruby dev in my city. ($115K) He wanted to go in at $110K. I kept telling him how odd it was to be negotiating salary upfront, and he told me "that's just how recruiting works." I just shrugged and let him do his job. If I'd wanted to negotiate my salary myself, I wouldn't be using a recruit…
"If I'd wanted to negotiate my salary myself, I wouldn't be using a recruiter." For me, recruiters are useful for two reasons: to find me interesting opportunities and to help me get an interview. When they've served those two functions, I'd prefer them to just get out of my way. From that point on, I feel my own interests are best served by me representing myself. The recruiter's real customer is not really any one…
And I'm cool with that. Recruiters do an important job for me at the point in my career that I'm at. Cut through the bullshit. I don't want to deal with a wishy-washy employer. I don't want it to be my whiny voice they hear asking them for more money.
I want a buffer. Because if there's one thing I know about corporations it's that there's a lot of stupid thinking going around when it comes to hiring. Employers think they want things when the things they want, once they had, they'll realize they didn't really want that, and you're the one that has to pay the price for that. Using a recruiter means you're serious about hiring.
I want to stay in my own little world and just code. Job hunting is stressful. I'm happy to let the recruiter do the stressful parts for me. Far as I'm concerned it's a fair trade.
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$150k salary + $150k stock does not equal $300k salary. Not even in SV. And that 30% bonus sounds like made up nonsense.
Why the hostility? I'm not making any of this up. That bonus is typical of multiple places I've been, usually comprising 15% individual performance bonus and 15% company performance. And of course 150 sal != 300 sal. 300+ is total comp, as I already said.
I expect there is more than one factor at work here. I've known folks who "grew up" in a single company; joined out of college, worked there 15+ years, got annual raises, then got laid off and then couldn't find work at their previous salary. And the expectation of an annual raise kept forcing up their salary but I don't think the company was actually evaluating whether or not the person was getting more valuable ove…
Both sides are interested in getting a price and, ultimately, it's the person in the weaker position who ends up revealing theirs. Imagine the roof of your house was getting old and started to leak, so you figure it's time to replace it. Upon contacting a roofing company and inquiring what it would cost, they say "You're the one who wants a new roof and are willing to pay for that being done, so you should be offerin…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would not tell recruiters my current salary, ($75K) but I did tell him my target salary, which was market rate for a mid-level Ruby dev in my city. ($115K) He wanted to go in at $110K. I kept telling him how odd it was to be negotiating salary upfront, and he told me "that's just how recruiting works." I just shrugged and let him do his job. If I'd wanted to negotiate my salary myself, I wouldn't be using a recruit…
> Be a team player. Climb the ladder, pay your dues. It doesn't take as long as you think. This attitude is why engineers get bullied and steamrolled into working for a small fraction of the value they create for their employers, leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table over the course of their careers. Being a team player is for after you're on the team -- but before that happens it's not personal, it's…
Until then, why not just work for market rate or just slightly below? Don't stress yourself out, there's no reason to and it'll hurt your bargaining position. 90% of it is done before you even get to the table anyway.
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I own my recruiting agency, and I don't care what your last salary was. I do care about what you are looking for so I don't waste your time, my time, or the client's time. I also realize that any target range you give me before even meeting the client may increase or even decrease after you learn all about the company, team, benefits, etc. All that said, a candidate that knows their market value should never have to…
> All that said, a candidate that knows their market value should never have to fear talking about salary history or expectations. The main article starts with an anecdote about how talking about salary history prevents a guy from getting work.
I see this all the time in applicants. They've spent 15-20 years on the job and have less than 5 years of useful experience. The rest is stagnation where they haven't grown their skills. And yet they expect to be paid as if they've got 15-20 years of useful experience. That's why answering the salary question derails the negotiation. There may be an odd recruiter that is willing to accept the premise that an older worker is able to complete the job's tasks at enough above the acceptable level to justify the increase in cost. But most will opt for a younger worker willing to do an acceptable job.