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Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

mikehadlow.blogspot.com

161–170 of 197 posts

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#161

Where was the proof presented for this? That idea doesn't sit well with me at all. Maybe they meant to say that it's hard for most people to want to sit still and stare at text all day. It's hard to ignore urges to go out rather than stay inside and read tutorials on the web. I don't think programming itself is hard. Most people program. It's just that they do it without thinking about the steps they're programming,…

> Where was the proof presented for this?

The evidence presented is fairly poor, and consists of:

(1) failure rates of university first courses in programming for majors (which could indicate how hard it is to learn programming -- or how poorly designed university first courses for majors in the field are for the audience they attract.)

> I don't think programming itself is hard.

Actual coding isn't all that hard, once you have the foundations. But structured problem solving is a key foundation, and isn't all too often deliberately and effectively taught outside the context of programming (and, unfortunately, often isn't effectively and deliberately taught with programming, either, but programming seems to be the most common context where it is taught.)

> Most people program.

I don't think that's even approximately true. Most people do not plan out detailed step-by-step process from inputs to desired outputs that are expected to be successfully implemented by an execution agent that is perfectly literal and exact and exercises no independent judgment and has no ability to fill in the blanks and do what you probably meant given their understanding of the desired outcome even though you failed to specify it.

Even preparing step-by-step procedures for human agents is hard, not done a lot by most people, and done poorly by most people who do it, because most of them do so without good training.

System/process analysis skills that underlie both programming and procedure development may not be hard, but they are not skills that most people are taught effectively.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#162
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a dirtier secret: A load of professional programmers are not able to make new programs. A load of professional programmers are not able to modify existing programs. And a load of professional programmers are not able to finish programs. Almost no-one is good at all 3. Most are extremely bad at least one of these. Lots of people who are "good" at making new programs are actually pretty bad.

Does HR know this? I'm afraid not.

If HR is doing something other than providing expertise on managing relationships (particularly, the formal and compliance-related aspects of those relationships) for supervisory/management staff that are the domain experts providing knowledge related to the skill sets needed for the staff which are or will be reporting to them, then the organization has a fundamental (though, to be sure, distressingly common) design flaw.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#163

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

I agree.. I was talking with a CFO about one of his employees, who he called his secret weapon - an accountant with coding skills. The ability to do a regular job plus the ability to code is extremely valuable. In architecture there is a trend of computational design - if you google for 'designed with grasshopper', you'll see some amazing shapes. The best designs don't come from the best programmers, they come from t…

In theory this is true, but in practice a common pattern is that Joe is a superstar accountant/lawyer because he can code and uses that to do his job better. This becomes known to his co-workers and boss. Six months down the road he's spending a huge portion of his week helping Mike with this one little excel macro or Mary with automatically generating contracts. He also gets called in when a message pops up on the screen about the virus scanner finding something because "you're good with computers and those IT guys always take forever". He does less and less legal or accounting work, and when he tries to get a raise or find another job it turns out that he's no longer a great hire as an accountant but he also can't compete with programmers that have had programming jobs. He's stuck in this weird hybrid spot that doesn't have even have a name and no one hires for it.

Maybe that'll change in the future, but for now the wiser course may be to keep your superpowers to yourself.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd love to see the source you base that claim on. Like the government's official data on adult literacy? http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF After 1994 they got rid of the 'advanced' literacy ability category, corresponding to roughly the level academic journal articles are written at, because not enough Americans qualified. So currently the top literacy level is 'proficient', which is roughly the minimum leve…

First, thank you for providing a credible source. However, linguistic constructs in most programming languages are not what I'd consider advanced English. A C++ program is hardly written in Shakespearean style, for example. And many words in programming languages do not exist in English per se; e.g., "def" from Python is not a word. So, programming requires a more basic understanding of written English than you seem…

> However, linguistic constructs in most programming languages are not what I'd consider advanced English.

Linguistic constructs in most programming languages can be at least as complex as anything in English, and aren't even English at all. You know how many experienced programmers have trouble dealing with programming languages with, to them, unfamiliar syntax? To someone who hasn't programmed, all programming languages have unfamiliar syntax.

> So, programming requires a more basic understanding of written English than you seem to imply.

That doesn't follow from the premise that "linguistic constructs in most programming languages are not what I'd consider advanced English."

"Proficient" literacy (the current highest level) for each area of literacy is defined as follows (from the document provided upthread):

Prose literacy: reading lengthy, complex, abstract prose texts as well as synthesizing information and making complex inferences

Document literacy: integrating, synthesizing, and analyzing multiple pieces of information located in complex documents

Quantitative literacy: locating more abstract quantitative information and using it to solve multistep problems when the arithmetic operations are not easily inferred and the problems are more complex

I would argue that programming tends to require literacy at that level in each category of literacy in that least one natural language (the language in which information about the programming language, etc., and the problem domain is available), as well as the ability to develop the equivalent degree of literacy in the programming language. (This isn't necessarily a prerequisite to learning programming, and especially in the case of early programming exposure, I think programming is a useful context for achieving a proficient level of literacy in a natural language.)

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#165
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of adults can't read English well? Let's get real here, that's not even close to the truth.

Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that? I live in America, and your claim sounds somewhat bizarre.

You meant to reply to the parent right? Just look at the published studies on the topic. One can argue for roughly 20% functionally illiterate easily, any higher and its really just speculation. Certainly far from a "vast majority"

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#166
post #8

I loathe these type articles. They're complex arguments to justify the attitude that "only we chosen few (men) with serious tech degrees are gifted enough to do important work in code." Tech is a big, prosperous industry and will be bigger if we act welcoming rather than creating complex arguments to protect our turf. Disclaimer: Am a white male with a CS degree who runs a coding bootcamp.

Did you even read the article? It makes while not directly opposite pretty close argument to that. It literally says that software development is a less respected industry than it should be and that aptitude can be anywhere not just the few well off privileged elite.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#167
post #43

This article reflects my experience at University very well. I'm a self taught programmer that ended up pursuing a CompSci degree. I'm in the last semester of my BSc, and in hindsight I should have studied something else, like Physics or Electrical Engineering. The standards are ridiculously low. Most of my coursemates (final year CS students) are literally unable to write software. They can write a single-file cpp f…

I have to go to a vocational college as part of my apprenticeship in germany and I am learning exactly what you described.

Guess what todays topic was? Software Estimates! (that includes COCOMO)

The teachers even acknowledge that the waterfall process is bad.

I don't really see the point of the vocational college. I am learning all the practical skills at the company already.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#168
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. I've never seen that work for actual software development, but I guess it depends on where you work/what sort of job you do. I've seen it work for sdets though so who knows.

Err, SDET _is_ a professional software developer. It's in the title! Working in a non-development group doesn't somehow make you not a software developer.

They aren't the same job, regardless for how similiar the titles are.

My point was the skills required in architecting a solution vs testing a given specific solution differ. So, while you can more easily fall/move into a automated testing role, it's harder to do so into a core programming job. The bar for moving into the latter, rightly or not, very much higher.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#169

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

As someone who is a software developer, I can assure you that this is enough coding skill to get a job as a software developer. Being able to learn how to code is the important bit. A lot of places will expect you to learn how to do most of what you're doing as you go.

...and significantly more than some developers I've worked with.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are overstating how easy it is to get interviews for development positions. From what I have seen, someone without some demonstrated coding experience, professional or hobby, won't even get the time of day from companies looking to hire developers. They will never get to the take-home assignment phase.

It all depends... The question boils down to "how much of a shit job are you willing to go after"? There's always a few programming jobs that no one wants because the pay is awful and the company/job description is crap (PHP web apps for 28k/year? ROFLOL). But then they act as proof of employability for slightly better companies and soon you have 12-24 months of "professional" experience and landing interviews at OK…

PHP is paradise compared to the bed of glass and nails some of us 30-somethings had to drag ourselves through man.

Lotus Domino. Never Forget.

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