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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#161

Post by Immortalin »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #80
omegaham wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll confirm this anecdotally. My sister was extremely good at math and science... until the end of middle school, when she started hanging out in earnest with her friends. Her friends thought that any intellectual interest was nerdy and stupid, and my sister acted accordingly. Now, the girl who was easily learning algebra in elementary school "just can't do math." I think that the big difference in STEM is that nerd…

It's very sad how many people (both male and female) I knew growing up were "extremely good at math and science" until they ran headlong into anti-intellectual American high school culture. I saw people who loved science fiction spiral into useless party culture and end up with unfulfilling low-value service jobs. That's a tremendous waste of talent, and I don't think it's very much a gender issue. I favor an approac…

Singapore

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#162

Post by mindcrime »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #81
dclowd9901 wrote: post #77

> Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines. Sans the "general inter…

Let's suppose I worked at a desk next to yours, and one day, I brought in an elaborate lego Millennium Falcon to put next to my monitor. Would you support a policy that required me to remove this icon of geekdom in the name of making the workspace more welcoming for women?

Here's a thought: If we, as an industry, started to move away from this "everyone in one big shared bullpen" / open-plan model, and started giving people individual offices again, would that make things better? Because now, you, as, say, a female programmer, are free to decorate your office in pink and with "Sex In The City" posters, and issues of Cosmo or whatever (if that's what floats your boat) while your co-worker can have Doctor Who and Star Wars posters, and electronics magazines, blah, blah (or vice versa).

Personally I think that one of the best way to accomodate the uniqueness that makes us all individuals, is to embrace that individual nature and give people solo offices. Of course, that's not the only reason I advocate for private offices, but it's hard not to think that it would help in this regard as well.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#163

Post by wtbob »

rayiner wrote: post #133
rewqfdsa wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think sharing culture can create an esprit de corps, improving morale and group cohesion, especially in times of crisis.

Why can't the shared culture be a mutual commitment to high-quality work? Let me put it another way: do you want to spend all day hearing about my toddler? If not--well that's how I feel about everything you're interested in. So let's just all do our work and leave our personal lives at home.

> Why can't the shared culture be a mutual commitment to high-quality work?

Because that's not how human beings bond. We don't bond over a single facet of our lives; we bond as a community. The modern world, in which we live different places, believe different things and pursue different jobs, is poison for any sense of community.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#164

Post by wtbob »

dang wrote: post #34
uiwei09 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Boys get toy cars AND sewing kits." So to fix problems you would screw Boys aka male gender ? How much retard are you ?

We've banned this account for breaking the HN guidelines.

Did he actually say something terrible, or did he just commit a thoughtcrime in public? In this sort of discussion, one never knows. I didn't see the original comment, so I have no idea.

But, given the context of this discussion, I am concerned that there is a decent possibility that he wrote something not outrageous, but simply contrary to the current received wisdom of young Bay Area Californians.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#165

Post by patio11 »

wtbob wrote: post #164
dang wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've banned this account for breaking the HN guidelines.

Did he actually say something terrible, or did he just commit a thoughtcrime in public? In this sort of discussion, one never knows. I didn't see the original comment, so I have no idea. But, given the context of this discussion, I am concerned that there is a decent possibility that he wrote something not outrageous, but simply contrary to the current received wisdom of young Bay Area Californians.

You can see the comment by turning on show dead in your profile. I'll save you the trouble: it adds nothing to the discussion then uses a slur.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#166

Post by wtbob »

jkyle wrote: post #114
yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Is it true that there is a "rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks"? I've seen a little bit of TV this year - every hacker I saw was female, and most were goths. Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" and looking up the ones that are likely to have a hacker as a character, I discover "Arrow" (female hacker), NCIS (female hacker), 24 (female hacker), Criminal Minds (female hacker), P…

> Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" Hollywood has a history of being a canary in the coal mine when it comes to stereotypes...both good and bad. For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters.

> For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters.

I suspect that was a cause, not an effect, of widening acceptance of homosexuality.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#167

Post by blackguardx »

tptacek wrote: post #138
makomk wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do persecuted non-nerds have the right to (in any way) cordon off computer science as a refuge free from nerdiness? Because that's what articles like these seem to be suggesting we'd need to do, by saying that nerd social cues like Star Wars and geeky T-shirts are excluding women.

I think that's an overwrought reading of the article, for two reasons: first, the article isn't prescriptive about Star Wars, and second, it's reporting simple facts; whether you feel comfortable about it or not, nerd culture's coupling with software development does alienate potential entrants to the field. But let's not bother deploying dueling readings from the article, and instead see how much you and I actually…

Do companies do that? I've never experienced any embrace of "nerd culture" at any place I've worked.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#168

Post by tptacek »

wtbob wrote: post #163
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't the shared culture be a mutual commitment to high-quality work? Let me put it another way: do you want to spend all day hearing about my toddler? If not--well that's how I feel about everything you're interested in. So let's just all do our work and leave our personal lives at home.

> Why can't the shared culture be a mutual commitment to high-quality work? Because that's not how human beings bond. We don't bond over a single facet of our lives; we bond as a community. The modern world, in which we live different places, believe different things and pursue different jobs, is poison for any sense of community.

A group of middle-class white guys will bond more quickly and easily than a group that mixes white guys and low-income black women.

So where do you draw the line? It's clearly not OK, even in the name of "cohesion", to encourage a culture that excludes people of different income levels or ethnicities.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#169

Post by tptacek »

blackguardx wrote: post #167
tptacek wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an overwrought reading of the article, for two reasons: first, the article isn't prescriptive about Star Wars, and second, it's reporting simple facts; whether you feel comfortable about it or not, nerd culture's coupling with software development does alienate potential entrants to the field. But let's not bother deploying dueling readings from the article, and instead see how much you and I actually…

Do companies do that? I've never experienced any embrace of "nerd culture" at any place I've worked.

Sure! Here's an example I'll ruefully draw from the last company I helped manage: all-hands offsites at local breweries.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#170

Post by wtbob »

Mz wrote: post #67
rewqfdsa wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose that most HN readers are men. There's no obvious gender signaling in your username. (It's two letters long, after all.) What's wrong with someone using the male pronoun as a default until being corrected? Do you expect commentators to read a user's profile before choosing a pronoun for that user? That would be a big efficiency loss for no real benefit. It's unfortunate that this default bothers you, but…

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here. The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is instead of assuming I am male. If you do not know my gender, it takes very little effort to speak in a way that admits you do not know it: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-fool-be...

> The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is

And the correct way to do the latter, in English, is to use male pronouns. It's different in other languages, no doubt.

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