Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#161

Post by jrock08 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:26 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #151

lambda wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about replacing cars with bikes, but making biking a viable alternative, such that it is actually possible to get from point A to point B by bike without taking a substantial risk of being killed by substantially faster car traffic. No one actually expects to replace all cars with bikes. But replacing 20% of them would substantially cut down on congestion and emissions; and avoiding further growth in auto…

> This is not about replacing cars with bikes, but making biking a viable alternative... That isn't the rhetoric from bikers in my neighbourhood. They actively campaign for the dismantlement of motorvehicle-related infrastructure. Whether it is turning car lanes into bike lanes, reducing available parking in new constructions, or new road taxes, their avowed goal seems to be to make driving more painful.

> dismantlement of motorvehicle-related infrastructure. Whether it is turning car lanes into bike lanes,

Yes, it turns out we overbuilt streets and under-built bike infrastructure so now we have to reclaim some car lanes to create bike lanes instead. This is not the end of the world.

> reducing available parking in new constructions

Reducing the required parking in construction doesn't eliminate parking in new constructions if parking is actually important, it just allows the free market to actually price parking instead of forcing non-drivers to subsidize parking spots.

> or new road taxes

Are you talking about congestion pricing here? If so, you chose to drive in an area which doesn't have the throughput to handle the cars, and yes, you should have to pay a fair price to use the road.

> their avowed goal seems to be to make driving more painful.

No, the goal is to make biking safe and possible. Driving has too long been the default, so you look at every attempt to claw back some semblance of balance for bikers as an affront to your right to drive.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#162

Post by Bahamut » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:28 PM UTC

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( .

One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus.

It is frustrating how often bikers don't care about co-existing with the other modes of transportation & following the rules - I feel like this needs to change first before the area becomes bike friendly.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#163

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:29 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

> I feel like this needs to change first before the area becomes bike friendly.

As in people should stop work making the area bike friendly until the issue of dangerous driving of bikes is ended?

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#164

Post by npsimons » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:32 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

While I agree that cyclists should be better behaved, I feel that it may be an (over)reaction to hostility from drivers. There's a saying motorcyclists have: ride like they (the car drivers) can't see you. I like to extend that for cyclists as "ride like they can see you and they're trying to hit you." The sad truth is that America is bike hostile, and even apart from that, many who shouldn't be driving are still issued drivers licenses (one cyclist was killed by an old lady near where I live, but no one's going to tangle with the AARP, and most people thought she'd have lived had she been in a "safe" car).

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#165

Post by jrock08 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #155

jkyle wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bikes also alleviate congestion on public transit and roads.

That is situation-dependant. I have seen slow bikes cause backups on roads. I've also seen heavily-used bridge lanes turned into empty bike lanes. Even when fully used, the carrying capacity (people moved / time) of a bike lane can be far less than a lane dedicated to buses or even cars. (It depends on slope and traffic speed.)

> That is situation-dependant.

So let's do it where it makes sense

> I have seen slow bikes cause backups on roads.

Build bike lanes.

> I've also seen heavily-used bridge lanes turned into empty bike lanes.

Why didn't bikers feel safe on these lanes? Why weren't they used, or are they used, you just don't see it because you aren't looking during the right hours?

> Even when fully used, the carrying capacity (people moved / time) of a bike lane can be far less than a lane dedicated to buses or even cars. (It depends on slope and traffic speed.)

I've never been in a bike traffic jam, but I've been in more than my fair share of car traffic jams in high density areas. This is because cars take up more space per person than bikes, bikes are a very viable alternative to single person random access transport over short to medium distances while busses are not if the routes don't line up well. Obviously, for traveling 50 miles, there isn't a substitute for a car, but the point of this is to make urban areas bike and pedestrian friendly for the people that live in those areas, not necessarily to make it easier to drive through them.

http://www.seattlebikeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/2n...

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#166

Post by fizx » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often cars ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( .

[Eh, pick any time you've seen a car shoot through a crosswalk and narrowly miss pedestrians... I observe this at least weekly]

It is frustrating how often drivers don't care about co-existing with the other modes of transportation & following the rules - I feel like this needs to change first before the area becomes car friendly.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#167

Post by tmalsburg2 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:36 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #108

buro9 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, you're never going to get people who live 15 or 20 miles out biking the whole way to work That's what I do every day in London. Why wouldn't you? Myself and a lot of my friends choose our housing approx' 45 minutes to an hour away from the centre of London just to ensure we've got a good ride every day. At a commuter average of 16mph, and an experienced cyclist average of 18/19mph means that 15 to 20 miles is…

Many, many people: - do not have showers at work - do not have safe routes to ride - are not experienced cyclists - average more like 10mph The discussion is not "how do we get hardcore bike nuts to ride to work". That's not hard.

I find it hilarious that Americans made it to the moon but think that commuting to work by bike is practically impossible. Meanwhile millions of people all over the rest of the world, from school children to seniors, are doing just that every single day. I moved to southern California last year (from the UK) and of course I ride my bike to work. My colleagues think that this is a really strange thing to do and some regularly lecture me about how dangerous that is. Never mind that there are dedicated bike routes that are super safe and even safer than most bike lanes in European cities (because hardly anyone else is using them).

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#168

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:37 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

Your sentiment is perfectly understandable, but also wrong. Here's a comment from a Dutch guy about biking in the bay area that sums it up:

> I think the expectations thing is a big problem, especially combined with bikers being (having to be) more obnoxious in the US. When I just arrived, I was shocked with how much all the bikers broke the rules (skipped lights, biked on the curbs etc.) and just were general assholes in traffic. Two weeks later I was one of them.

Cyclists break the rules because the system doesn't care about them. Cyclists aren't second-class citizens (that would be pedestrians), they're more like third-class. At least pedestrian gets a lot of protected, separated infrastructure in the form of sidewalks; cyclists usually have to make do with a strip of paint on the road right next to cars that could kill them in an eye-blink.

Or look at intersections: they're clearly designed to prioritize cars first, right? And then pedestrians are second, you can't turn left in one go like cars and there's no protection, but you at least have your own signalling. Intersections often ignore bikes completely, you basically have to wait until a car comes along, or awkwardly waddle over to the walk button.

Looking at it another way: motorists go above the speed limit and through red lights constantly. Should we stop investing in freeways until 'they' start obeying the law? Of course not.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#169

Post by state » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:39 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

I have been cycling since I was a kid — both in a silly spandex suit and as a commuter. I've commuted on a bike in cities around the US and in Europe. I hate to say it: but Bay Area commuter cyclists are without a doubt the worst.

I'm more worried about another cyclist hitting me or doing something dangerous than I am about traffic most of the time. I recently had someone nearly hit me by passing me on the right without saying something. When I suggested that they should either pass on the left or call out "on your right" he yelled at me. Baffling.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#170

Post by meatysnapper » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:39 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #66

hyperion2010 wrote: post #62

Based on the photo at the bottom they are going to fail the same way that many other US cities have failed when trying install bike lanes. You MUST put the parked cars between moving traffic and bikes. If you do not bikers are going to get hit and doored and will obstruct turn lanes. Pretty much everywhere in Europe gets this right. Traffic -> parking -> bikes -> peds. How did the US get everything completely backwar…

I agree with you. To a certain extent there's institutional inertia around it now. Another issue is actually pedestrians not liking the idea of cyclists (who are all reckless scofflaws, of course) being right next to them. What they don't realize is that a) the reckless cyclists are a tiny minority of the people willing to bike in good infrastructure, and b) even a reckless cyclist probably still poses less of a thre…

Although i'm a fairly responsible biker, I'd say the amount of bikers I see totally ignoring traffic laws is very high- stoplights, riding fast on sidewalks, going the wrong way on one way roads, etc. Maybe 30%. Re sidewalks, I think most people feel very unsafe on bikes in demarcated bike lines, and I get that. The other stuff is totally crazy though.