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The Unemployable Programmer

unemployable.pen.io

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Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#151

Post by drzaiusapelord »

vonmoltke wrote: post #136
mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

Agreed, sometimes people aren't aware that HN is its own little echo chamber.

I was talking to a recruiter recently for a managerial job and somehow got onto the topic of hiring. I asked him what's the hardest jobs for him to fill right now. He told me he's dying for entry level .NET/ASP and Java developers. Corporations have built their castles on these technologies, not FOSS/Mobile and need staff. Degrees were an issue but he said he could place people with two year degrees.

We talked about pay, and it wasn't terrible impressive, but for someone straight out of community college it sounded pretty good to me and he also revealed that if the person wasn't a complete nightmare socially, he could expect to be promoted quick.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#152

Post by ScottWhigham »

vonmoltke wrote: post #136
mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

If that were true, it would mean that The Valley hires, on average, lower quality developers than non-Valley employers. Is that what you are suggesting?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#153

Post by duiker101 »

wtbob wrote: post #114
gexla wrote: post #52

I want to start dating. I put my profile up to dating sites. I spend much of my days sending messages to women's profiles. I take their personality tests, but I never get messages (or replies to mine) even though I'm sure I get matches. I even started looking at niche sites such as "nerd dating..." Dude, just get out and actually talk to women. I'm not going to say how to get gigs, jobs, etc because I'm out of my lea…

> Dude, just get out and actually talk to women. That's a lot easier said than done. The parallel with employment is actually not bad: one doesn't find a job by approaching random offices asking for work any more than one finds a wife by asking random if they would like to get hitched (yes, some small number of people succeed with both approaches); one often finds a job by being introduced to the right opportunity by…

But that's still how you are most likely to get women(or jobs) and how it's been done since forever.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#154

Post by zyM7A6bQzJKBHnS »

speeder wrote: post #60

What about people that instead NEVER had a job? I got my degree in 2009, at the height of the crisis (for now at least... here in Brazil the crisis of 2009 is finally getting worse), I NEVER had a legal job, all the stuff I put in LinkedIn were semi-legal or outright illegal stuff (or my startup). Also my programming language of choice were clearly a poor choice, I learned C, and C++ and whatnot when I was a kid (I w…

I actually have the completely reverse experience. I've been writing software for more than 15 years and C++ always got me a job.

When I was unemployed, I always had at least ten potential employers calling me for my C++ skills. And with C++, you can get a lot of various jobs like multimedia, systems programming, security, banks (even if you know nothing about it, they will teach you what you must know whether it's a big bank or a company doing embedded devices). My resume is rather generic and I don't have any specialization.

It's definitely not a useless skill. It seems to be a bit rare and I'm sure that's why I always had companies hiring me to write C++ code.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#155

Post by victorvation »

> I would argue that the outcome of hiring an Unemployable Programmer might in fact be better overall, because we're motivated and we get stuff done - as opposed to the hipster "rockstar" programmer we actually do eat and breathe code.

It's odd that the author seems convinced that they are more productive than 'hipster rockstar programmers' who aren't motivated and don't get stuff done. Isn't that what they do by definition? And what's truly strange is how he seems to think that those types of people don't "eat and breathe code", when the prevailing sentiment on HN is that these 'rockstars' have poor work-life balance and don't do anything except code on evenings/weekends. It feels like he's lashing out at 'young people' in general who seem to be able to get jobs.

I seems that the author's lack of success obtaining a job stems directly from a lack of effort - or knowledge of how much effort is required. He seems to think he is entitled a job just because he's been doing it since he was a kid or because he's had a job for ten years.

I can say from experience as someone who was looking for a development job with no experience, much more is needed than passively posting on a job board, listlessly browsing oDesk, or even sending out a few resumes. Every intern hiring season, my classmates all end up disappearing from class and social life for a few weeks - sending out hundreds of resumes and applications, dozens of emails (cold or introductions), spending hundreds of hours studying for interviews, tens of interviews - pounding the proverbial, virtual, and literal pavement - resulting in most of us receiving one or (more often) multiple job offers.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#156

Post by jschwartzi »

Zimdale wrote: post #135
matwood wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've interviewed people like this though not as extreme. Basically person gets a job. They learn the job in about 3-6 months and now repeat the same job for years without ever learning anything else. So on paper it shows 5-10 years experience, but in reality they still have about 3-6 months experience. Part of the blame lies on the company for not giving the employee a growth path, but the largest part lies on the em…

> They learn the job in about 3-6 months and now repeat the same job for years without ever learning anything else. So on paper it shows 5-10 years experience, but in reality they still have about 3-6 months experience. This is the most spot on thing I have read regarding this issue and is why interviewing is so challenging when it comes to developers. This is also why the interview process for developers is so gruel…

Except for all the 20-somethings who started programming when they were 14.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#157

Post by mkozlows »

vonmoltke wrote: post #136
mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

I have friends who are devs and hiring managers (several of whom have no degrees, even) in many cities -- Detroit, Columbus, Portland, Chicago, SF -- and the same thing is true in all those places.

If you live in a small town, I can believe that the opportunities are limited, but in basically any metro area of any size, it's a developers' market.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#158

Post by robotkilla »

mpermar wrote: post #131
robotkilla wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that for the last several years we've been trying to churn out new developers who will accept jobs for very low wages (or even come on as interns and work for free) and they've got an edge on the so-called "new stuff" which pushes out the 40 year olds? There's an even bigger push for this now. It seems like everywhere I turn someone is learning to "develop". Sad to say, most of these people only know h…

Sure there is tons of new cheap developers. More than ever. And that's because there is more demand for developers and software than ever. Years ago you could only sell software running on gigantic servers or desktop computers. Now there is tablets, smartphones, tvs, consoles, glasses, watches... Of course there is demand for cheap workforce, and of course there is more demand than ever for skilled workforce. And sal…

> So it's a matter of skilling oneself up, specialising or searching carefully. But I 100% believe there is no better industry to be job searching on our 40s.

I do agree with both of these statements which is why I try to level up on a constant basis.

You are correct, apps and closed appliances are definitely the wave of the now, possibly continuing into the future. VR is about to hit the market, video games are going strong, people still think they need phones, and websites are still going strong. So yes tech is a great industry to be in, and what else are you going to do? Swing a hammer?

But the more saturated the market gets with developers (and they don't have to be good as long as they're cheap and get the job done fast... something that is harder to do as you get older) the less value guys like myself or you will serve.

Sticking with a company and one technology is of course a slow form of career death, but getting strangled out by all the new growth and an abandonment of the old (be that human or technology) is also a very real problem that isn't just going to vanish by cramming knowledge into your brain.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#159

Post by logfromblammo »

jcadam wrote: post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

The shortage of developers with clearance is exacerbated by the number of people with clearance who want to exit the defense contractor ecosystem, because it's a military-industrial clusterfuck from top to bottom. They hire us for our brains, and then tell us not to use them.

Except we can't get out because of two factors:

  1. The non-defense ecosystem won't fix their insane hiring processes.
  2. If you do actually get an offer, it is 80% of what you currently earn, or less.
There is not a glut of highly qualified engineers in the private sector. There is a glut of barely adequate engineers, and the employers out there seem unwilling to pay reasonable rates for anyone better, aside from some exceptions in the tech hub cities.

I'm stuck, too.

I would jump ship in an instant if only someone would offer me 102% of my current pay, 40 hours a week, and the opportunity to do more fulfilling work.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#160

Post by stephengillie »

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

This story sounds like the person started as a programmer, started a small company, and then did more Business Development and running the company than programming. He mentioned having to fire people, so I wonder how many people he employed.

So it sounds like he already made a career change (from software development to business executive) and is now trying to change back to software developer, after a decade out. Most of the stuff that was common back then is "considered harmful" now, ranging from GOTO statements to tags.

And also this sounds like my poor mother, who labored as a secretary and transcriptionist, left the labor force to rear children, then lamented that her skills had become useless because computers had come along and taught everyone to type. It's each person's responsibility to make sure they're still useful to everyone else in society.

And so the author's other options might be continuing on as an executive at another software company - but that almost always comes from the human network that is developed by going out and meeting people at various events. Which it sounds like the author did not do either.

I guess the moral of the story is that the author got spoiled during the Dotcom boom or shortly thereafter, got to continue living life in super-easy mode, and is having a rough awakening to the way life is for everyone else.

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