Greeks Reject Bailout Terms • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#151

Post by nailer » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #33

nailer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece needs to get their house in order: the stats on tax avoidance are huge. There was a greek restauranteur on the BBC earlier complaining that due to the ATM shutdown he couldn't pay his suppliers, even though he had the money, since they preferred cash. In the UK you wouldn't dare say that about your business on TV. However that's a generational change: Greece can't and won't be fast enough to do this and will n…

From reading on about how Greeks avoid taxes pretty publicly and blatently[1], this is more than a generational issue. It seems like it's buried deep in the culture now. "A 32-year-old chef in Athens says his income taxes are automatically deducted from his monthly paychecks. But every time he buys something and is given an option to pay less if he doesn’t ask for a receipt, he says yes." [1] http://www.wsj.com/artic…

In Italy they have Finance Police: when you buy something, you MUST hold onto the receipt until a few hundred meters away from the store. Some Italians may be able to shed more light, as I've only ever seen them operate in Rome and never in Florence or Venice.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#152

Post by MrScruff » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

This is nothing to with fairness. Greece need debt relief or it will collapse, and the creditors will still lose out. You're no doubt familiar with the concept of drawing a line in the sand and making decisions for the future common good, as happened with Germany's debts after WW2.

The potential long term political and financial cost of abandoning Greece far outstrip the 70B it owes Germany. It will leave the European project in tatters, despite what Merkel assures us.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#153

Post by bodyfour » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #126

paskster wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

I wonder what the EU expected. How is this morally different from the fact that most of the other 49 US states pay for the debts of Mississippi? If we hadn't been doing it on a long-term continual basis, and MS ran its own economy, we'd be talking about "bailing them out". But life support to MS is the long-term normal in the US economy.

The main difference is that much of the US taxes are collected at the federal level with compliance enforced by a federal agency.

European taxpayers aren't going to be willing to permanently transfer money to a country if they feel some of the government's problems are caused by widespread tax evasion.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#154

Post by atmosx » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

jwdunne wrote: post #118

atmosx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. What if a country destroys, literally, the entire continent killing around 80 million ppl, 70 years ago. What should we do with this country? Should show some solidarity and pardon it's debt or "abide to the rules" and ask them to pay their dues to all the countries they created damages?

I haven't down voted you because this has been on the tip of my tongue but I've held it back because it's such a low-ball response which achieves nothing. I think this whole "look at X" is why we're in this chaos. We can point fingers this way ad infinitum but it's only served to keep the EU in stalemate over this issue.

You're free to down-vote me, I don't care :-) I can assure no hard feelings about it... I had expressed many unpopular opinions on HN and had been downvoted many times, never held me back from expressing my views.

What I'm saying is that solidarity towards Germany was key in 1945. Now it's time to make a Marshall plan for Greece that will bring 'justice' to the country, fix our tax-system, etc. Every Greek would welcome that sort of change even it came from abroad.

The troika didn't do that at any point. It just sucked money from Greek tax-payers.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#155

Post by pcrh » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

spiralpolitik wrote: post #20

brianmcconnell wrote: post #6

The Greeks were getting a shitty deal, and knew they were getting a shitty deal. Good for them for decisively telling the Germans to get stuffed (who conveniently forget about their WWII related debts being forgiven). Iceland demonstrated that it's possible to say no to perpetual debt peonage and go on to do well. If Greece has to leave the Euro, so be it. The Euro made sense as the Deutschfranc, but that's about it.

By leaving the Euro Greece will have the opportunity to put their country back together without 20 years of crippling austerity. They still need to fix their broken tax system and keep spending with their means but they have a much better chance of doing this on their own terms rather than under the cosh of the Troika. If only other countries could be so brave.

Leaving the Euro and deflating will destroy savings...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#156

Post by tptacek » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #114

tptacek wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite some sources for the years of primary surplus? I'm looking for them, and the stats I'm seeing all suggest years of severe deficits.

2013: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023045495045793203... 2014: http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-misses-target-on-budget-s... 2013 caveat: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/04/24/greek-statistics-are-ba...

You can find WSJ stories suggesting that the 2014 primary surplus is also dubious; under what the WSJ says is a "conventional" definition of primary surplus, not the one tailored to Greece, they apparently ran a deficit of over 8% of GDP in 2014.

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2014/04/23/greek-primary-surpl...

So far, the narrative that Greece was chugging along running a surplus before accounting for debt service does not appear to square with the facts.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#157

Post by makeitsuckless » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #126

paskster wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

I wonder what the EU expected. How is this morally different from the fact that most of the other 49 US states pay for the debts of Mississippi? If we hadn't been doing it on a long-term continual basis, and MS ran its own economy, we'd be talking about "bailing them out". But life support to MS is the long-term normal in the US economy.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you?

Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#158

Post by return0 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #122

minot wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. Serious question: Why do you think switching currency to Drachma will solve anything? From what I've heard and read, Greece can't spend its way out of this problem because it lacks trust among creditors.

They won't follow Capt. Germany's (self-serving) rules, so they'll be kicked off the euro boat. Right now some might imagine that life will go on as before, but the simple physics of buoyancy will mean they'll have to start swimming eventually. But... there's nothing wrong with swimming! Sure, the drachma will plummet against the euro, dollar, etc. So no one will be able to afford an iPhone. But their factories, farm…

This is going to take a looong time because greece is heavily de-industrialized, (e.g. imports ~80% of meat). But i agree it's inevitable.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#159

Post by tptacek » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

Jare wrote: post #149

tptacek wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely accurate. Some of the "No" votes may be agreeing with his statement, but the premise of the referendum was that it would strengthen Greek's negotiating hand: the "No" votes are supposed to represent a demand for better terms from the EU, not a rejection of the idea of a bailout altogether.

> the premise of the referendum was that it would strengthen Greek's negotiating hand Wrong. The reason for a referendum is so, whatever comes next, the people and the governing party go in knowing they are together, with a level of bonding that is extremely rare in our cynically modern western democracies. Compare with Spain's recently gag law, which was passed by the government against the will of almost half of th…

Somebody forgot to tell that to the government of Greece:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/us-eurozone-greece...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#160

Post by huhtenberg » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #126

paskster wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

I wonder what the EU expected. How is this morally different from the fact that most of the other 49 US states pay for the debts of Mississippi? If we hadn't been doing it on a long-term continual basis, and MS ran its own economy, we'd be talking about "bailing them out". But life support to MS is the long-term normal in the US economy.

Greece effectively lied its way into the EU. It doesn't exactly leave much place for any moral appeals.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Financial_Audit,_2004