ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation • Hacker News Board

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#151

Post by notahacker » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 8:30 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #140

jasonlotito wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would have shared publicly that you are revoking someones employment offer because you found them seeking career advice on a Q&A board?

This one is kind of tough. I'd like to think that I'd be better than the Zenefits CEO, but, man, this kid makes it really hard to take his side. First, it shows really poor judgment on the part of the junior engineer. Dear God, did you think that people can't identify you , specifically? It's not like Zenefits is giving out 10 job offers a day. Second, you're likely to jump as soon as you get the chance. Neither empl…

I dunno, I see several posts a week on HN where I think "I bet your cofounder/colleague/boss/investor will know this is you if they read it" questions every week, many of which are far more contentious in subject matter, so this kind of questionable judgement isn't that unusual. The stupider point is that he was seriously considering turning down an apparently better environment and $15k more because Uber gets more mainstream press attention and has a more inflated valuation. But we were all naive about the world of work once...

As a CEO I'd want candidates getting a second opinion privately so they were reassured when they decided to accept my offer, and the only reason I'd see "not ruling out much worse offer from other company" as a major black mark is if being savvy in commercial decisions was an important aspect of the role.

A savvier candidate would probably be trying the "That's great, but I also have an outstanding offer in a similar total comp range from Uber. At this stage I think I'd fit much better into your team, but if you could move a little on the financial side of your offer I'd be much more inclined to confirm without waiting have that followup conversation with the Uber hiring manager" approach anyway. And quite possibly succeeding...

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#152

Post by notahacker » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 8:42 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #31

jusben1369 wrote: post #2

I feel like Zenefits is becoming a case study in everything you don't do when you enter an industry. We'll be switching away because I'm worried who else they won't play nice with in the future. Uber and AirBNB have scared the heck out of huge incumbent industries and cities/governments and had scraps to be sure. But they don't have the consistent missteps as Zenefits. They know when to fight and when to take a lump…

Also Über and AirBNB are consumer companies. Zenefits has to appeal to enterprise customers. Beyond that we're talking payroll. This is the most conservative part of any business. Lawsuits do not make for good advertising.

Plus use of Uber and AirBnB is transactional (at worst, I might have to dispute a downpayment or arrange alternative accommodation at short notice if my AirBnB hotelier has trouble)

I'm far more locked into the consequences of the bad decision if I go with the sketchy SaaS provider and employee benefits broker

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#153

Post by freehunter » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 8:47 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #136

pbreit wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

De-duping like this seems unnecessary. I'd prefer to see do-nothing bias. No explanations or artificial manipulation needed. Just let the threads compete. Like life.

I understand the concept, but HN has never worked that way, and if it did the results would be so bad that I believe (though I realize it won't convince you) that even you would recoil in horror. It would also kill HN pretty quickly in all the ways we care about, though I suppose the numbers would go up.

Take, for example, any Apple product announcement. The front page is filled with "Apple Open Sources Swift" articles from 100 different sources before things settle down. I can remember when I first started reading through HN and it didn't seem like anyone was performing that job... so they took hours or days to go away. Now we have only one thread within minutes.

Thank you.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#154

Post by dopamean » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

realityking wrote: post #142

dopamean wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a joke dude.

That went totally over my head, my bad. That said, I'm not a native speaker and humor is sometimes difficult.

Understandable. Sarcasm is hard over the web and even more so if you're not a native speaker. I should be more sensitive to that.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#155

Post by free2rhyme214 » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 8:57 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #5

tdees40 wrote: post #4

The descent into lawsuits is pretty sad. When customers hate your product (i.e. the ADP front-end) so much that an entire company forms around making something less terrible, you really have to look at yourself in the mirror. I continue to be amazed by the horribleness of benefits web front-ends. I recently did a simple task in our Hewitt system, and it required five pop-up windows. It's just so, so terrible.

It seems to me that being in business for 65+ years and being the undisputed market leader in an industry and then having an incredibly well funded software company with hundreds of employees siphon off only 600 of your customers isn't necessarily a moment for self reflection. I've used ADP myself as a startup founder. Yeah the interface is annoying. So is Craigslist, whatever. That line of argument isn't necessarily…

I agree it's not a moment of self reflection but that doesn't mean what they're doing is right or Zenefits wouldn't exist.

I use ADP and I think their front end is horrible. It works but it's enough of a pain point for others to switch.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#156

Post by eveningcoffee » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 9:40 PM UTC

neotek wrote: post #103

joshstrange wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zenefits doesn't have any intrinsic rights to ADP's system. Zenefits doesn't want or need intrinsic rights to the ADP system. They do need (and deserve) the same level of access as a human working for a client using ADP. They might provide little to no value or be a worthless company but NONE OF THAT MATTERS. The client paid for ADP access and has every right to use whatever means they deem necessary to input or ou…

>The client paid for ADP access and has every right to use whatever means they deem necessary to input or output data from the ADP system. Surely ADP has a superseding right to determine how information enters and leaves their system? I'm not suggesting that's good or bad, just pointing out that it's their system, being a customer doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you like. Hell, look at what happened to…

> Surely ADP has a superseding right to determine how information enters and leaves their system?

No. They do not own this information.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#157

Post by eveningcoffee » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

baakss wrote: post #105

DannyBee wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zenefits was not sued for TOS violations, they were sued for defamation. The case number is 4:15-cv-02560-DMR You can use PACER to get more info The complaint charges: (1) DEFAMATION; (2) INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE WITH PROSPECTIVE ECONOMIC RELATIONS; (3) UNFAIR COMPETITION; (4) FALSE ADVERTISING; (5) LANHAM ACT VIOLATION Everything but the first claim is just dumb.

From the Zenefits CEO in Emails to customers (calling ADP unethical for protecting their customers data): When you originally set up Zenefits, you created an Zenefits admin user in your ADP RUN payroll account to let Zenefits manage your payroll—set up new employees, manage deductions, remove departing employees—on your behalf. Yesterday, without your permission, ADP systematically deactivated these accounts—accounts…

> calling ADP unethical for protecting their customers data

And from who they are exactly protecting their customer data?

> When you originally set up Zenefits, you created an Zenefits admin user in your ADP RUN payroll account to let Zenefits manage your payroll

It should be obviously clear for any sensible person that Zenefit would have access to your data as much as the admin user has.

It is not dissimilar from creating an account for a person and results of this should be understandable for anyone who has at least some idea about the management.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#158

Post by protomyth » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #152

protomyth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Über and AirBNB are consumer companies. Zenefits has to appeal to enterprise customers. Beyond that we're talking payroll. This is the most conservative part of any business. Lawsuits do not make for good advertising.

Plus use of Uber and AirBnB is transactional (at worst, I might have to dispute a downpayment or arrange alternative accommodation at short notice if my AirBnB hotelier has trouble) I'm far more locked into the consequences of the bad decision if I go with the sketchy SaaS provider and employee benefits broker

Your right, there is no fun on this earth like a failed accounting system change. Ask anyone who has participated in a SAP deployment that has gone wrong.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#159

Post by ne0n » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #20

realityking wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are two different companies, they just have the first tree letters of their names in common. Just like ZenDesk.

It was a joke dude.

Well, yes, it was a joke, but many people are probably confused about that. It's worth noting.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#160

Post by DannyBee » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:01 PM UTC

mark212 wrote: post #86

CPLX wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Barring some outliers, the difference between lawsuits that are dragged out and ones that aren't is not a factor of 10, it's probably a factor of 1.2. That's crazy talk. You can double the length of a lawsuit in one simple stroke just by having your attorney say "Sorry that week is bad for me can we do [date]" every time there's a continuance or adjournment. You can set return dates for any motions you initiate to…

no, actually you can't. It is not possible in ND Cal to "set return dates for any motions you initiate to the last date permitted." That's just not how motions work in ND Cal. And responding on the last hour of every filing deadline is what everybody does all the time. That's why most deadlines are fairly short (30 days, e.g.). The real driver of court delay is the judge, not the litigants. I've had judges routinely…

"The real driver of court delay is the judge, not the litigants. I've had judges routinely sit on motions (fully briefed) for 9 months in ND Cal. Then one party or the other will move for reconsideration and it's another six month delay. It's just the nature of the beast; judges in the federal system carry very heavy caseloads, particularly ND Cal. "

This is precisely why i said why is said. Because the litigants are not often the cause/controllers of the delay, despite their best efforts :)

Now, certainly, if the judges/etc were more efficient, yeah, you could pull out a factor of 10x. But the way things are, for a simple defamation suit, i can't see you getting more than maybe a 2x factor through various tactics.