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All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

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Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#151

Post by danudey »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #22
krschultz wrote: post #2

I was flying from Dublin to Newark on Saturday on a United flight. At some point during our flight the entertainment system needed to be rebooted. When it came back up, the splash screen hit me with a huge amount of nostalgia. It was RedBoot with a kernel build date from 2004. Obviously this is the entertainment system and not something more critical, but it's telling. There is a huge cadence mismatch between softwar…

This is the Achilles heel of the entire Internet of Things and smart appliance trend, and I think this will bite everyone bad. After 50+% of these vendors go out of business in the next decade, their products won't get updated, and people will wonder why their "smart" TV can't watch movies from whatever replaced Netflix/new whizbang video service. They won't be as likely to buy any "smart" thing again.

Heck, just look at the huge number of Android phones that you can buy at retail with an out-of-date version of Android with known security holes which will never be patched or updated. And those are relatively complex devices which are trivial for users to update if given the option, based on the adoption rates for e.g. iOS updates.

A company doesn't have to be out of business to not do security updates; they can not do security updates starting day one. There was an article a while ago about tons of home router vendors with insecure software from a third party, where the third party had resolved security issues years ago but the vendors had never bothered to update, leaving hundreds of thousands of devices vulnerable over the last few years.

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#152

Post by logfromblammo »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #22
krschultz wrote: post #2

I was flying from Dublin to Newark on Saturday on a United flight. At some point during our flight the entertainment system needed to be rebooted. When it came back up, the splash screen hit me with a huge amount of nostalgia. It was RedBoot with a kernel build date from 2004. Obviously this is the entertainment system and not something more critical, but it's telling. There is a huge cadence mismatch between softwar…

This is the Achilles heel of the entire Internet of Things and smart appliance trend, and I think this will bite everyone bad. After 50+% of these vendors go out of business in the next decade, their products won't get updated, and people will wonder why their "smart" TV can't watch movies from whatever replaced Netflix/new whizbang video service. They won't be as likely to buy any "smart" thing again.

They don't even need to go bankrupt. I have an LG television that has been promising new widgets ever since I first got it, and no new widget has ever appeared.

The impetus there was that LG changed its net-connected TV platform in 2011, and instantly dropped all support for older devices. One would think that a final update could remove that "coming soon" box from their proprietary added-feature screen, but they haven't even bothered to do that.

So I can watch NetFlix and YouTube on that device, but not Amazon instant video, or Crackle, or Crunchyroll, or Vimeo, or any of the dozens of selections available to better supported platforms. Having learned my lesson, and aware of the increasingly stalkerish behavior of "smart" televisions, my next TV purchase was very specifically a dumb screen. If I want an internet-connected service now, I use the Wii, or XBox, or the extended desktop from the nearest computer.

I will likely refuse to buy any network-enhanced appliance in the future, unless I am able to root/jailbreak it and install software without the manufacturer's stamp of approval. I probably wouldn't do much beyond installing ChillBox, or FridgeBSD, or CryogenMod, or whatever, but it feels like the possibility might keep them a little more honest. Because you know that refrigerator hackers would be capturing and picking apart every packet that thing sends out, quickly discovering that every time someone closes the door, it sends a tattle out to fridge-use.org about how long you stood there with the fridge door open, along with before-and-after photos of your food.

Though it would also be embarrassing if they marketed value models of a product line by disabling features in software/firmware, and some NetBSD-loving punks could come along and write a simple script that turns the doohickey that retails at $200 into the one that sells for $800.

So it's already too late for me. "Smart" appliances are just another low-capability computer that I will have to support as the in-home IT guy. And I will have to presume that they come pre-loaded with all manner of crapware and spyware. I would forever need to be checking on chipsets and revision numbers and compatibility lists. No thanks. It's hard enough managing the congestion on the home WiFi already.

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#153

Post by danudey »

xorcist wrote: post #144
rubiquity wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife and I still have our LCD TV from 2005. It's about 5 inches thick but it works great. The TV is even starting to look very cool/retro and we've been complimented on how it completes the look of our living space!

I still have a CRT TV. Do I win, or is there someone around with a B&W set? :)

I have a Mac 128k in my basement, does that count?

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#154

Post by ianstallings »

cryoshon wrote: post #51

Is this what an actual cyberattack / cyberwar looks like? Imagine how much money is being lost right now as a result of this disruption. Somewhere hackers are popping champagne.

More likely real hackers (programmers), working for united, were trying to roll out to production and experienced an issue.

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#155

Post by bitwize »

alogray wrote: post #112
bitwize wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well would you say that Tesla is coping with this as a company? For that matter, what about Apple? Apple just kind of assumes that you have the latest shiny, because why wouldn't you? This induces a phenomenon I call the Apple Turnover: when a software update aimed at new Apple things comes out and makes your old Apple thing not run so good anymore. Sluggish iPhones are the hallmark example today, but I was bitte…

When updates are free, what are the realistic alternatives? Android devices, for example, just reach end of life much more quickly. Given the option to update at the expense of performance or no option at all, it at least seems the better of the two choices.

I didn't say the Android situation was good, although with CM I am generally able to squeeze a few months to years of additional life out of an Android device.

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#156

Post by function_seven »

caskance wrote: post #135
wutbrodo wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confused about the meaning of the terms "reasonable" and "assumption". An assumption isn't unreasonable just because it turns out to be untrue. As I said, there may be realities of the market that invalidate the assumption (and apparently there are).

What makes an assumption unreasonable, in your opinion?

I'm not who you're replying too, but I'll try:

An assumption is reasonable if it follows logically from facts we know about the world to some conclusion. For example, cars with more features usually cost more than cars with fewer. A washing machine with a detergent dispenser and 11 different wash modes costs more than one with 3 modes and no dispenser. A thermostat that just sets the temperature and does nothing else will almost always be cheaper than one with wifi connectivity and a companion iOS app.

Based on that knowledge, its reasonable to assume that a TV with more features will cost more than one with fewer. This assumption is wrong of course, but it wasn't unreasonable.

So that means an assumption is unreasonable if there's no reason you'd make it in the first place.

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#157

Post by 33W »

detaro wrote: post #139
rsync wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last three "TVs" have been commercial display panels. These are the NEC panels that you see in the airport (turned on their side) for departure/arrival boards. They are more expensive than a best buy model. Not terribly so, however, otherwise the airport couldn't buy 200 of them. They are incredible displays.

How would one go about finding them? (search terms, manufacturers...)

"Commercial display panels NEC" led me to this: http://www.necdisplay.com/category/large-screen-displays

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#158

Post by caskance »

function_seven wrote: post #156
caskance wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes an assumption unreasonable, in your opinion?

I'm not who you're replying too, but I'll try: An assumption is reasonable if it follows logically from facts we know about the world to some conclusion. For example, cars with more features usually cost more than cars with fewer. A washing machine with a detergent dispenser and 11 different wash modes costs more than one with 3 modes and no dispenser. A thermostat that just sets the temperature and does nothing else…

There is no reason to make this assumption (about smart TVs costing less) in the first place. You can retroactively justify anything by twisting and cherry picking facts. A product with more features may cost more if it costs more to produce or customers are willing to pay more for it because they see it as more valuable. Neither of those applies to smart TVs.

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#159

Post by getsat »

caskance wrote: post #107
glesica wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find out who made money by shorting it, there's your list of suspects, or at least co-conspirators (if this turns out to be a hack).

Or people who use twitter and like to gamble.

Or bots who subscribe to Twitter feeds and open trades based on sentiment

Re: All United Flights Grounded Due to Mysterious Problem

#160

Post by molmalo »

caskance wrote: post #103
wutbrodo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think his point is based on the (very reasonable) assumption that an equivalent quality Smart TV is going to be more expensive, which isn't worth it in general since you're not using the features that cause the difference in cost. There of course may be realities of the market to cause it to not work out this way, but it's a pretty sensible assumption.

That assumption is not reasonable at all. Not only are "dumb" TVs no cheaper, hardly anyone even sells them anymore.

Depends on the market. Where I live, Smart TVs are easily about 2X the price for a similar "dumb" TV.
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