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White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

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Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#151
post #146

So, if the Supreme Court rules that APIs are copyrightable, then wouldn't that mean that someone could use AWS with some, for example, Java code generation tools that created classes with method names comprised of randomly selected words from a dictionary - effectively performing a "million monkeys with a million typewriters" attack on the entire possible API naming space? Publish the generated code on Github. Early…

No, while you might get a copyright that way, copyrights aren't patents. They only protect against actual copying and derivation. Independently authored works which happen to be similar, even identical, to some subset of a corpus are not a copyright violation. You don't get ownership of the naming space, just exclusive right to copy from your own work.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#152
post #83
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I'm failing to read regexes or failing to see the humor. Can someone explain/kill the joke for me?

The API is just a signature for calling the function -- I was joking that instead of screen_draw(int x, int y); what Google could do is: ggl_screen_draw(int x, int y); and say "New API -- they've got screen_draw(), we have ggl_screen_draw()".

Copyright protects deivative works, not just literal copying, so if copying the API is a violation, so is such a direct transformation.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#153
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the White House position is successful, it means Android as open source software is finished. It may go on as proprietary, maybe. It also means SQL, C, C++, POSIX, and more stuff that I can count are forbiden land for open source, and every company making products that include or derivate from them own a non-negotiable unknow amount to some party.

Note: In the US. The rest of us have less crazy copyright laws, at least until we're forced to adopt yours through TTIP.

Of course, at the US, at least at first.

My country is not even a party to the TTIP, but I bet once it's there, we'll import it somehow.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The music industry would love it if you had to pay for music multiple times, but you can nonetheless rip your own CDs. Or vinyl records with the right equipment. You can, but it's not legal, at least not in the United States. It's never really been litigated, but a reading of law would seem to say it's not legal. There's no "personal use" or "personal backup" clause in the law. It's a copy, and copying is not OK out…

Recording a film from TV is copying as well, but that was litigated all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled that it was legal. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive... . , AKA "Sony v. Betamax". That seems like a fairly clear precedent. Also see Sony v. Connectix for a somewhat related case regarding emulation and BIOSes. In that case, Connectix obtained copies of Sony's BIOS as part…

I don't think Universal v. Betamax applies. It specifically uses the word "time-shifting", meaning that it was meant simply to record a live program and watch it at a later time. Courts have subsequently rejected "phase-shifting" as an argument (see Napster). I do not believe Universal v. Betamax is sufficient precedent to the wholesale copying of your media for "personal use". I maintain that the specific facts we are discussing have never really been litigated and that the landscape has changed drastically since then, enough that courts would seriously reconsider Universal v. Betamax as precedent.

Down to the next point about obtaining a copy, I think there are two relevant points:

1. If you own it are you allowed to copy it?

To this I would personally argue yes. But I can see how copyright holders argue no. You purchase an item, not its contents. (When I think about the limits put on the aftermarket repair and upgrade market by hardware makers and the outrage that causes, I think there's a reverse logic that applies in this situation.)

2. Should you be able to obtain that ROM or copy because you purchased this item? (ethically, not legally)

This is thornier. Should I be able to download an ebook from a pirate site because I bought a copy of the physical book? What about an old nintendo game I bought many years ago? That to me is a more interesting ethical issue. I certainly did not buy a perpetual license for all forms of that work, but it's not like I can go pick up a copy of a game for my Android either. Of course, if I could pick up a commercial copy (Nintendo resells old games for its new platforms), would it still be OK?

But yes, I also have opinions about changing copyright law, or really reverting it to an older time. I do firmly believe copyright is a good tool to encourage the generation of art, knowledge and entertainment, but I believe that a perpetual monopoly on that content for a lifetime and for your children's lifetime (or companies) is counterproductive to that goal.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#155
post #65

Entirely predictable. Obama's VP was one of the strongest supporters of all things copyright in Congress during his legislative career. Obama's administration has clearly been on the side of Hollywood etc as well. Given that fact, on any issue you can depend on this administration to come down on the side of the strongest and most expansive possible interpretation of what should be covered by copyright. In this confl…

* In this conflict, Oracle wants copyright to cover more things. Google wants it to only cover what it has historically covered. * This is incorrect. By most reasonable readings of copyright law, API's have always been covered by copyright, unless deny that API design holds any modicum of creative expression. So it's more Google that's trying to reduce the scope of what's protected rather than Oracle trying to expand…

We can argue what readings are reasonable until the cows come home. But most lawyers had thought this area of copyright law settled. Creative expression is copyrighted. Functional expression is not. In cases like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade, use of copyrighted material where necessary for functional interoperability has been ruled fair use.

See http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1323818 for some of the history about how this came about.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#156

This thread is overwhelmingly against this stance by the DoJ, with a few "mixed" reactions. Whenever I see threads like this I wonder about opposing viewpoints... Does anyone think this is a good thing? If so, why?

The appeals court overturning Posner's decision about the general copyrightability of APIs and the amicus brief are both good things, because they are based on the correct legal rationales. Assuming your position is that copyright protection should apply to software at all, that is.

The fact that the existing fair use exception language is not clearly and explicitly permitting Google's use of the API is a bad thing.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, wine (the windows emulator) should be illegal?

In the context of the parent comment: if you build a business cloning Microsoft's Win32 API, I don't think you can complain if you get sued in the same way you can for a patent troll. And yes, I think Microsoft should get to decide whether it wants clones of Win32, and also that it's a waste of time for open source developers to implement non-open source APIs.

Taking that further, the following things would be illegal:

- The HTML parsing specification (created by reverse engineering IE6 without Microsoft's cooperation), and by extension all non-IE Web browsers.

- Except IE is also illegal, because JScript was a hostile clone of JavaScript, down to the APIs.

- The x86-64 ISA, for two reasons: first, because AMD cloned x86 to start with, and second because Intel cloned AMD's work after seeing its success.

- All versions of Unix in common use; thus, by extension, 95% of smartphones by market share.

- VMware, by providing implementations of the proprietary x86 supervisor instructions in user mode.

Reverse engineering of proprietary APIs for the purposes of interoperability has been responsible for a lot of technologies that we use all the time. I understand the argument about IP protection, but I think an absolutist position in the other direction is a bit too far. In all of the cases above, there is a specific reason why the dominant player responsible for the proprietary API was failing to capture a market need, and the legality of API cloning was what allowed a smaller player to come in, address that need, and achieve a better economic outcome. I'm having a lot of trouble imagining how a world in which all of the above things were illegal would be a better one--you could argue that the dominant player could have done each of those things, but the fact is that they didn't.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of the parent comment: if you build a business cloning Microsoft's Win32 API, I don't think you can complain if you get sued in the same way you can for a patent troll. And yes, I think Microsoft should get to decide whether it wants clones of Win32, and also that it's a waste of time for open source developers to implement non-open source APIs.

Taking that further, the following things would be illegal: - The HTML parsing specification (created by reverse engineering IE6 without Microsoft's cooperation), and by extension all non-IE Web browsers. - Except IE is also illegal, because JScript was a hostile clone of JavaScript, down to the APIs. - The x86-64 ISA, for two reasons: first, because AMD cloned x86 to start with, and second because Intel cloned AMD's…

It's not my position that you can copyright APIs per se. In my view, the protection in the Oracle case is a coincidence, stemming from the fact that you can't clone a Java API in Java without effectively copying the textual description of the API. So I don't think there would be a problem with reverse-engineering the operation of IE or x86 and describing it in an independently-written specification or implementing the same method of operation in another browser or CPU or in VMWare.

You're right about UNIX, but I don't think not being able to clone UNIX would've been any great loss to the world. iOS and Windows Phone would still exist, and I'm sure someone would have developed a cheap open source OS for the rest of the market.

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#159
post #143
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I am missing your point, but aren't all APIs simply definitions that describe how to communicate to an underlying system? An API, by itself (By definition of being an interface), does nothing. It's just a description of how one would ask the system to perform some function. It may be written in a way such that it describes what the system will do to produce a result. But that's merely descriptive, not functio…

> aren't all APIs simply definitions Isn't all text simply a description of something? But what can be copyrighted isn't the something, nor is it any description, but that particular text. A REST protocol isn't a specific text while an API is.

All text is a description of something, but not all text is copyrightable. I would hold that an API is a textual definition of processes used to interact with a system. I don't think that kind of rote technical description is covered by copyright.

I guess I'm confused over what you refer to when you say REST protocol. I'm imagining a textual description of endpoints, arguments and expected return types. Just technical details. Maybe you're talking about the actual implementation?

Re: White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

#160
post #76
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all fun and games until IBM sues Oracle for SQL royalties.

If I didn't think it would negatively impact the rest of the industry, I'd pay to watch that.

It would be the only possible good outcome. Unless it turned out someone owned enough of the CP/M API for it to bite Microsoft in the bum.

(While we're dreaming, would HP's ownership of VMS mean anything re: NT...)

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