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Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

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Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> banning abortion means forcing a mother to feed and care for another person (even if you consider a fetus a person). There's a difference between murdering a person and being forced to feed him. So assuming for this argument that a fetus is a person, an abortion would be akin to murder. Being forced to care for the person would be akin to being forced to raise him. Libertarians who believe fetuses are persons are a…

> Being forced to care for the person would be akin to being forced to raise him. Until the baby is born, it does depend entirely on the mother's resources. It literally pulls energy out of her blood stream. Now, I don't think fetuses are people, but if you believe they are then you have to admit that for the duration of the pregnancy the mother is compelled to feed and provide for that "person."

Yeah, it gets tricky to pick the policy that maximizes individual liberty when one person is biologically dependent on another to live. One way to analyze it is to look at which person sacrifices the greater freedom. If the mother terminates the pregnancy, the baby loses its life. If the baby is allowed to live off the mother's resources until birth, the mother sacrifices 9 months of her body's resources. Again, this all assumes the fetus is a person, which I believe is Rand Paul's position.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#152
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And against gay marriage, too! His defenders will claim that although he does not like it, he will still allow it. But that's not true either, because he will leave it to the states to decide (and about half of them will decide to ban it). Private prisons? Have at it. Urban poverty? Let the charities deal with it. Access to abortion? Similar response to gay marriage. The only reason he's popular on the internet is be…

What happens if the President hates abortion and gay marriage (serious question)? Does he have any power to repeal/overturn, other than having access to the bully pulpit? It's not like he can get elected and say "OK gay marriage is over now", which he could do to the NSA (whether he will is certainly up for debate).

Supreme-Court appointments come to mind.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#153
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when Ron Paul ran in the primaries, and in one of the first debates from 2011 I believe, they asked the Republican candidates whether they support a stronger Patriot Act or not. Like all the other 4 or 5 other candidates tried to out-match each other in how much stronger they would like the Patriot Act and other such laws to be. Ron Paul? He was the only one who said he would do away with it. Full stop. If…

> I believe, they asked the Republican candidates whether they support a stronger Patriot Act or not. Like all the other 4 or 5 other candidates tried to out-match each other in how much stronger they would like the Patriot Act and other such laws to be. It's worth thinking about the significance of that. These guys aren't doing it because it's wildly unpopular with voters.

> It's worth thinking about the significance of that. These guys aren't doing it because it's wildly unpopular with voters.

but one could argue that it's so popular with voters due to fear mongering, the labeling of everyday criminals as 'terrorists', and the national call to arms every few weeks when some psycho (undoubtedly referred to incorrectly as a terrorist) shoots his way through somewhere.

At what stop in this twisted feedback loop are we going to place blame? It seems pretty naive to put the blame on the scared (and voting) public.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#154
post #95
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Rand_Paul.htm Some of his positions: Life begins at conception. Endorsed Liberty Candidate: End the Federal Reserve. Women won the "war on women": they're no longer downtrodden. Punishing the rich means the poor lose their jobs. Blacks look who's in prison & conclude cops out to get them. EPA regulations cost $15 trillion in 2012. Exit the UN; maintain US sovereignty. Defund, repeal,…

How is social security not a ponzi scheme? The returns generated depend on finding new investors in the scheme, if current investors pull out the scheme cannot return promised benefits to current investors. This is pretty much the precise definition of a ponzi scheme and why the scheme faces certain bankruptcy with out a significant rise in births.

> This is pretty much the precise definition of a ponzi scheme and why the scheme faces certain bankruptcy with out a significant rise in births.

Or we could just remove the cap for social security tax.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#156

Yeah, and Nixon had a secret plan to end the war. Twice.

The war that was started by the Democratic Party: http://blogs.britannica.com/2009/01/2-the-vietnam-war-top-10... "President John F. Kennedy had sent military advisors and then troops into South Vietnam. After Kennedy’s assassination, what to do about the Vietnam War became a pressing matter of business for the new president, Lyndon B. Johnson." From there see the VietNam War link: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked…

Oh, well in that case I'll definitely vote for Rand Paul.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Rand Paul is a libertarian (I was simply responding to the parent). As for abortion, even if you consider the fetus a "person," I don't see how a libertarian would make a good case for the government to force the mother to continue to sustain and provide for it. > Removing regulation over social issues from government IS a very libertarian philosophy. Delegating to the states is very different from remo…

> I don't see how a libertarian would make a good case for the government to force the mother to continue to sustain and provide for it. So all neglect laws should be removed? > The libertarian thing to do would be to ban such regulation. That requires a constitutional amendment. Those are not easy to get passed.

> So all neglect laws should be removed?

That was the position of Murray Rothbard [1], who was one of the major intellectual founders of modern libertarianism, particularly anarcho-capitalism. He was a founder of the Ludwig von Mises Institute. Most internet libertarians seem to be followers of his school of libertarianism (although they often do not know it...).

His book "The Ethics of Liberty" covers children in chapter 14. You can find the PDF online. There's a big chunk of chapter 14 here [2]. Here's the most relevant part:

    Even from birth, the parental ownership is not
    absolute but of a "trustee" or guardianship kind. In
    short, every baby as soon as it is born and is
    therefore no longer contained within his mother's
    body possesses the right of self-ownership by virtue
    of being a separate entity and a potential adult. It
    must therefore be illegal and a violation of the
    child's rights for a parent to aggress against his
    person by mutilating, torturing, murdering him, etc.
    On the other hand, the very concept of "rights" is a
    "negative" one, demarcating the areas of a person's
    action that no man may properly interfere with. No
    man can therefore have a "right" to compel someone
    to do a positive act, for in that case the
    compulsion violates the right of person or property
    of the individual being coerced. Thus, we may say
    that a man has a right to his property (i.e., a
    right not to have his property invaded), but we
    cannot say that anyone has a "right" to a "living
    wage," for that would mean that someone would be
    coerced into providing him with such a wage, and
    that would violate the property rights of the people
    being coerced. As a corollary this means that, in
    the free society, no man may be saddled with the
    legal obligation to do anything for another, since
    that would invade the former's rights; the only
    legal obligation one man has to another is to
    respect the other man's rights.

    Applying our theory to parents and children, this
    means that a parent does not have the right to
    aggress against his children, but also that the
    parent should not have a legal obligation to feed,
    clothe, or educate his children, since such
    obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon
    the parent and depriving the parent of his rights.
    The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his
    child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from
    doing so. But the parent should have the legal right
    not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die. The
    law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent
    to feed a child or to keep it alive. (Again, whether
    or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally
    enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a
    completely separate question.) This rule allows us
    to solve such vexing questions as: should a parent
    have the right to allow a deformed baby to die
    (e.g., by not feeding it)? The answer is of course
    yes, following a fortiori from the larger right to
    allow any baby, whether deformed or not, to die.
    (Though, as we shall see below, in a libertarian
    society the existence of a free baby market will
    bring such "neglect" down to a minimum.)
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard

[2] http://mises.org/library/children-and-rights

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#158
"The president created this vast dragnet by executive order." That's a remarkable simplification. Makes a good sound bite, but demonstrates, to me anyway, that he doesn't mean what he's saying.

Falsifying the origin of a problem you claim to intend to fix puts that claim in quite a bit of doubt.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#159

Given the current field of candidates, it's pretty much Rand Paul or More-Of-The-Same. Seriously, Hillary is just Obama-term-three and Jeb... oh Lord, talk about scary .

as someone who vehemently hated Bush Jr, I am beginning to wonder which would ultimately be more dangerous and damaging to the states; the sneakily nefarious third term Obama cabinet which will say one thing and do the other while ignoring the people calling them out on it to gradually gain small amounts of power, or the recklessly irresponsible and blatant nature of the Bush cowboy genes and the power grabs that are so obvious that half of his own party disagrees.

God, it makes me sick to my stomach to sound pro Bush. I promise I don't mean it that way.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#160

Great, the man also wants to destroy public funding of science. I understand that that is his opinion, but well fuck that. I want to be a scientist and need REUs. Science is more important than capitalism. Capitalism has failed the world. edit: that last sentence was a bit much, I'll admit.

Capitalism is the reason you are using the wonderful machine in front of you. Capitalism is the reason you have food. Capitalism is the reason you are not right now waiting in line for toilet paper. Capitalism has far from failed.

Very little actual good and a lot of bad science has come from public funding.

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