Earlier quoted context omitted.
I did explain it in my post, but maybe it was too short. Earth has been kept in the habitable temperature zone over the last 3.5 billion years through falling CO2 levels. Around 3.5 billion years ago the sun provided ~25% less energy than now and the CO2 levels were much higher. This is the green house effect. As the sun got brighter over time the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has fallen. For more on this see the sl…
C4 photosynthesis is an adaptation to higher temperatures and lower atmospheric CO2. And C4 is a very recent innovation (25 to 32 million years ago, says Wikipedia). But yeah, I don't know if even the C4 plants could handle 0.01% ambient CO2.
The Fermi Paradox
151–160 of 168 posts
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
I did explain it in my post, but maybe it was too short. Earth has been kept in the habitable temperature zone over the last 3.5 billion years through falling CO2 levels. Around 3.5 billion years ago the sun provided ~25% less energy than now and the CO2 levels were much higher. This is the green house effect. As the sun got brighter over time the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has fallen. For more on this see the sl…
So some CO2 is needed for plants. It does not make certain CO2 levels a requirement for intelligent life. Change in temperature does not necessarily kill intelligent life either.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do you think that current CO2 concentration levels are important for intelligent life? Slight adjustment in how body works can easily adapt organism to new CO2 levels.
I did explain it in my post, but maybe it was too short. Earth has been kept in the habitable temperature zone over the last 3.5 billion years through falling CO2 levels. Around 3.5 billion years ago the sun provided ~25% less energy than now and the CO2 levels were much higher. This is the green house effect. As the sun got brighter over time the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has fallen. For more on this see the sl…
We are currently at about 400 ppm (parts-per-million), which would be 0.04%. http://co2now.org/
About 20 000 years ago, the lowest was maybe ca. 200 ppm.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#154I am surprised a more common argument was not mentioned: other life exists but the laws of physics limit our interaction. Maybe there is undiscovered physics like wormholes or time travel, or maybe there isn't and the speed of light really is a fundamental limit that cannot be surpassed. In that case, no matter how advanced another civilization becomes, they still can't violate natural law and are thus unable to reac…
I often wonder this as well. The speed of light isn't really a physical limit to expansion - generation ships are theoretically possible. It may just be that the Great Filter takes the form of relatively benign[1] economic and/or sociological obstacles. At least, if you take a diff between typical beliefs at the time the Fermi Paradox was formulated vs. typical beliefs now, I would say the experience of the shutting…
As an example, the European Conquest of the Americas was driven by competition between European nation-states, it might not have occurred so swiftly or at all without some kind of competitive pressure.
Said another way, imagine yourself waking up in the court of King James of England or Queen Isabella of Spain. You establish rapport and they believe you come from the future. You communicate faithfully what you know about history. What conclusion do you think they are more likely to reach?
1) They have done the right thing by colonizing the Americas.
2) They have created what will eventually become new competitors, of whom at least one (the USA) will have subjugated them under the disguise of an alliance called NATO.
In the crucible of 15th-century European politics, neither England nor Spain may have had much choice in their desire to acquire more resources and open new markets.
And maybe the 21st Century will have cheap space travel and good reasons to take the trip. But we shouldn't ignore the possibility that Earth's governments may just decide to not let anyone leave and blast anyone who tries. Let's call it the "Nitrogen Curtain" in honor of Winston Churchill.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. Just a note: it probably wouldn't seem as if a chunk of the galaxies was removed; in fact, I believe the luminosity (after some settling time) of a start with a Dyson sphere or the like would emit about the same light a regular star does -- the difference would be the temperature. The apparent temperature of the star should increase(?) (i.e. it emits(?) higher entropy radiation): by simple energy conserv…
Highter entropy radiation has lower temperature. But yes, the energy must go somewhere, thus the total energy irradiated is the same. It just shifts into infrared or radio.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#156I've always wondered at what distance it would be impossible for current technology to detect life on earth.
We can infer life based on atmospheric compositions NOW, but only if that planet fits an extremely narrow margin... meaning, Earth. Earth three and a half billion years ago had life on it, but you'd be hard-pressed to tell it from orbit.
If you want to move to unambiguous (intelligent) life then.......
The largest radio telescope we have (the 305 meter diameter Arecibo) would need to have it's sensitivity increased by around two orders of magnitude JUST to pick up our TV/FM/AM signals from outside the solar system. So, the crap we pump out the most couldn't even be detected by Voyager 2, if we had strapped a giant dish to it.
If we move into the narrowband signals then, depending on the source-strength, Arecibo could potentially pick up signals at up to a few thousand light years... if it happened to be pointed in exactly the right direction at exactly the right time.
So, our most sensitive instrument is only capable of measuring a fraction of a percent of the spectrum in a fraction of a percent of the possible-directions-it-could-be-pointed if the point source happened to be sending a strong enough signal (aimed at us) at exactly the right time (which would be anywhere between 2 and a few thousand years ago).
I haven't done the math, but I suspect that regardless of the frequency and amount of energy we dump into sending out a signal (within the realms of not being scifi, anyhow), it would be impossible for anyone to detect us a thousand or two lightyears out (using EM radiation) without knowing when/where to look. They also wouldn't be able to "see" that for quite a long time yet. I couldn't find a list of "when did we start sending out signals at X frequency" (and I suspect it doesn't exist), but if we take 50 years ago as a guess and we assume we pumped out noise at a frequency that could make the distance at a power level sufficient to be noticeable and that there wasn't anything to get in the way of the signal then we're only looking at something like 2000 star-systems.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you consider the declining birth rates of modern nations as the standard of living goes up, then it stands to reason that once a civilization reaches the point where it might be able to engage in large scale space exploration, the population that can do so has become relatively stable. So you simply never (or rarely) get exponential cosmic expansion. There might be a few billions of that race roaming the stars, bu…
But declining birth rates don't lead to stable populations, they lead to shrinking populations. So if we don't manage to restore birth rates, this would be an example of 'Great Filter ahead of us'.
--
Date 1: Every two people produce four offspring.
Date 2: Every two people produce three offspring.
Between Date 1 and Date 2 the birthrate declined by 25%, but the total rate is still positive.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#158How about this possibility: the Great Filter is now! We entered it, perhaps, when we developed sufficient collective nuclear weapons capability to wipe out most or all human life; we won't be out of it until the major threats our civilization poses to the biosphere have been resolved.
Even if we wipe ourselves out tomorrow, that still means that a civilization was able to broadcast its existence for about 80 years. If the Great Filter is now or ahead of us, that at least implies that pre-filter civilizations can be advanced enough to signal their existence. At some point our signals will be too weak for anyone to pick up or distinguish from cosmic background noise, which probably limits the radius…
The largest radio telescope we have (the 305 meter diameter Arecibo) would need to have it's sensitivity increased by around two orders of magnitude JUST to pick up our TV/FM/AM signals from outside the solar system. If we move into the narrowband signals then, depending on the source-strength, it could pick up signals at up to a few thousand light years... if it happened to be pointed in exactly the right direction at exactly the right time.
You'd have to build an absolutely monstrous dish to be able to detect any of our signals at even the center of our own galaxy (much less at the other end)... I haven't run the numbers on it, but I doubt it's physically possible to build a receiver large enough. Add to that that they're highly directional devices and I think you'll find the "N" in your scenario is actually a startlingly small number.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#159I personally find the "we are first" solution to be the scariest scenario. We are not suited for the responsibility of being the only intelligent life in the universe.
What responsibility? I can see absolutely zero responsibility attached to that scenario. Humans also may be the most responsible intelligent life that ever exists in the universe. What's the basis to judge such things to begin with? There's an exceptionally low probability that human survival has any bearing on whether other intelligent life comes to exist (in the we're first scenario). Being first bears no responsib…
As such, should we nurture, protect, and by all means spread the intelligence sickness? I'd think yes.
Re: The Fermi Paradox
#160Possibility 5) There’s only one instance of higher-intelligent life—a “superpredator” civilization (like humans are here on Earth)—who is far more advanced than everyone else and keeps it that way by exterminating any intelligent civilization once they get past a certain level. If we're the most advanced civilization right now, that will be us in a few million years. We're kind of dicks.