An Offer to Sony from 2600 • Hacker News Board

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#151

Post by nemo » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:12 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #91

b3tta wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well… The difference is the implied meaning of burning a book. Making a movie about the assassination of the NK leader doesn't imply hate. I'm pretty sure making the movie wasn't about the hate against NK per se, but rather a comedy about the situation in an oppressed country. If you burn a koran/bible I'm pretty sure we all know what that means: You hate the religion and wan't it to die. As you can see the differenc…

What about burning just the pages of the Koran that condone slavery. Is that still hate speech?

Intent matters.

In the case of the movie, the audience was American moviegoers, with the producers solely intending to amuse the audience.

In the case of the Koran burning, the audience was Muslims worldwide, with full knowledge that the act was under intense media scrutiny, and with forewarning that it would likely result in riots and violence. He chose to act in a way that he knew would result in riots and violence. It wasn't "hate speech." It was an act that was engaged in consciously with knowledge that it would likely provoke a violent response engaged in out of pure malice.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#152

Post by 5yzygy » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

connie_lingus wrote: post #95

The CIA report threatens our legitimacy as a world power. no it does not...almost everyone in the world understand that under certain conditions, torture to get potentially life-saving information is just the way of things. let me put it this way...if your immediate family was going to be blown up in two hours, wouldn't you say go ahead and torture that guy who you KNOW has information on how to diffuse the bomb?

I believe torture is abhorrent. Effectiveness aside, how would one morally distinguish himself from the bomber in this imaginary scenario? Or is it because one person has done something terrible, a moral golden ticket is created that allows a person to do anything, including terrible things like anal rape and simulated drowning, in order to /maybe/ stop that first terrible act? Is there a torturer inside every human heart just waiting for an excuse to be let out? The philosophical ethical project isn't about what we can get away with but instead against what kind of standard do we want to hold ourselves. If we allow ourselves torture as an acceptable mode of conduct, what is off limits?

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#153

Post by hellgas00 » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:16 PM UTC

maroonblazer wrote: post #123

wmeredith wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise is pure fantasy. There was never a ticking time bomb scenario. And torque is NOT an effective means of extracting information. Everyone from Napoleon to Hitler to our own Military generals have aid as much. Here's a good article on the subject: http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/no...

>And torque is NOT an effective means of extracting information. Then how do you explain this case in Germany where simply threatening torture resulted in the perpetrator divulging the location of his victim: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germa...

This is the case where there is without a doubt a definitive 'ticking time bomb'. Torture is usually used to illicit confessions, and in the case of the CIA they used it as a method to garner further information without knowing if the subject had more information to give. Say the guy in the article was just a suspect and didn't actually know where the person was, is it prudent to torture him because he might know something?

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#154

Post by tmzt » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:18 PM UTC

thefreeman wrote: post #122

zaroth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure they are in complete control, although it's a great image of master manipulation to imagine they are. I'm waiting until I really understand the whole story to start assigning any blame. I'm more interested at this point in figuring out what this means for the future. Do we live in a world now where state-actors will target specific companies and basically try to rip them to shreds and extort them? Now I'…

The thing is that from what I can tell this attack is not even in the same order of magnitude as the state sponsored attacks you are referring to. I haven't found a good write up on the attack, however my understanding is it was mainly due to Sony's lack of security and not the prowess of the hackers. This was something like SQL Injection and non password protected excel files with employees social security numbers.…

Whatever else there is one thing I'm sure of: we won't let any facts get in the way of Cybergeddon 15.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#155

Post by wylee » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:30 PM UTC

MarkMc wrote: post #91

b3tta wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well… The difference is the implied meaning of burning a book. Making a movie about the assassination of the NK leader doesn't imply hate. I'm pretty sure making the movie wasn't about the hate against NK per se, but rather a comedy about the situation in an oppressed country. If you burn a koran/bible I'm pretty sure we all know what that means: You hate the religion and wan't it to die. As you can see the differenc…

What about burning just the pages of the Koran that condone slavery. Is that still hate speech?

What about burning just those pages of the Bible that condone slavery?

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#156

Post by maroonblazer » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:42 PM UTC

hellgas00 wrote: post #153

maroonblazer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And torque is NOT an effective means of extracting information. Then how do you explain this case in Germany where simply threatening torture resulted in the perpetrator divulging the location of his victim: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germa...

This is the case where there is without a doubt a definitive 'ticking time bomb'. Torture is usually used to illicit confessions, and in the case of the CIA they used it as a method to garner further information without knowing if the subject had more information to give. Say the guy in the article was just a suspect and didn't actually know where the person was, is it prudent to torture him because he might know som…

Right, I wasn't arguing that torture was necessarily called for in situations where we don't know if someone has the desired information. I was more making the point that the idea that "torture never works" isn't borne out by the facts.

One could imagine a situation where, like this one, we DO know the person has the information. Add to that the 'ticking time-bomb' context and it's difficult to argue against torture.

Just to be clear, I think torture is horrendous and should be outlawed. But to say it should never be used is to fail to grapple more broadly with the complexities of collateral damage.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#157

Post by encoderer » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #147

kyledrake wrote: post #75

The last time people got this crazy about a hack, Kevin Mitnick was thrown in solitary confinement for months because they thought he could "whistle nuclear launch codes into prison telephones". 2600 made the documentary about it, Freedom Downtime, and I strongly recommend watching it if you never have. So what if North Korea did it (of course I'm skeptical of this, anyone with a computer can conduct the same activit…

>The CIA report threatens our legitimacy as a world power. The Sony hack just costs a corporation some money, maybe (free publicity FTW). Big. Deal. It is a big deal actually. Sony and these movie theaters taught the world that US businesses are so risk averse that they will give into any threat - credible or not. The crazies will now come out of the woodwork. Not every business will give in, but the volume of threat…

Sony is not a US Business...

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#158

Post by happyscrappy » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:47 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #111

happyscrappy wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only someone who has never run a business can be in favor of more crackers and script kiddies.

Yeah of course because who cares if people get tortured, mass raped, cluster bombed and starved as long as we get to keep running our little startups, right? Wars vs more script kiddies and you'd really choose the wars? I'm disgusted.

Euroweenies can be as outraged as they like and it won't matter because they never do anything. Europe will be a vassal state for the forseeable future.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#159

Post by droidist2 » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

rblatz wrote: post #107

connie_lingus wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you would allow your parents and children to be blown up rather than make a horrid criminal be very uncomfortable for a few minutes???? and i'm the nutty one?

The world doesn't work like the television show 24.

I've never watched a minute of 24 but I know what you're talking about.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#160

Post by uxp » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 5:54 PM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #141

maroonblazer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And torque is NOT an effective means of extracting information. Then how do you explain this case in Germany where simply threatening torture resulted in the perpetrator divulging the location of his victim: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germa...

I don't think you deserve to be downvoted for providing a concrete, real world example that supports your argument.

But his concrete argument (while being factually correct) is irrelevant. No one was tortured, but was threatened with torture

In the case of Abu Zubaydah, in his first 2 months of capture he provided more information than at any other time. The "enhanced" torture techniques didn't start until about his 3rd month of detention.

In both cases, the threat of torture, among other future conditions that don't fall under the "enhanced" umbrella (simple solitary confinement, life in prison, unable to see family, etc) were enough to extract valuable information. Subjecting them to humiliating and physically brutal conditions did nothing. tl;dr: threatening torture can motivate people to divulge information, but performing it does nothing further.