Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree completely and yet ... I feel a bit responsible too. In my mind, Kathy has credibility because she built it the old fashioned way - being worthy of trust. Being a Java developer, I watched JavaRanch grow and I especially loved watching her presentations (the BoS talks are amazing). And yet I under-appreciated what these attacks were doing to her as well as how severe they'd become. No having celebrity of my o…
Great attitude. But I wonder if 'refuting trolls' is the same as feeding them. What else is there to try?
Trouble at the Koolaid Point
151–160 of 285 posts
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think there are several points: 1. Most people starting out online are not aware that "Your chances of being harassed increases linearly as your popularity." and most people that haven't been abused online themselves don't think it's a serious problem. 2. The ratio of harassment to popularity is not a universal constant; it can be improved. 3. By shedding light on the issue, there is at least a hope that the situat…
> By shedding light on the issue, there is at least a hope that the situation can be improved. If nobody talks about this, then there's no way things can get better. On the contrary, silence would probably make things worse, as trolls would learn that they can get away with it. Are you sure about that? It's not like if you tell a thief that stealing is bad, they won't steal any more. Also, a counter point would be, t…
Then, we can figure out what we, as individuals, can do to alleviate the problem, like ceasing any sort of collaboration with a known abuser (just an example; haven't thought it through).
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Moderation is hard toget right and it leaves the door open to destructive trolling. So, while I agree wth you that moderated spaces are better than unmoderated we need to rememberthat it's not a panacea.
It's pretty hard to learn moderation. There are almost no good resources and you have to learn through failure and reflection. (I've been moderating bulletin boards for 15 years)
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree completely and yet ... I feel a bit responsible too. In my mind, Kathy has credibility because she built it the old fashioned way - being worthy of trust. Being a Java developer, I watched JavaRanch grow and I especially loved watching her presentations (the BoS talks are amazing). And yet I under-appreciated what these attacks were doing to her as well as how severe they'd become. No having celebrity of my o…
Great attitude. But I wonder if 'refuting trolls' is the same as feeding them. What else is there to try?
The older sense of troll (posting controversial opinions and false statements in hope of getting furious disagreement) does respond to "feeding", but is not so directly harmful.
Then you have to make a judgement call as to whether some opinions which aren't specifically violent or threatening should be banned anyway (e.g. "women do not belong in IT"). Allowing those opinions drives people (e.g. women) away, often quietly and without fuss, but creates a subtly oppressive environment. This is not easy to do and will itself attract controversy and trolling.
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
> By shedding light on the issue, there is at least a hope that the situation can be improved. If nobody talks about this, then there's no way things can get better. On the contrary, silence would probably make things worse, as trolls would learn that they can get away with it. Are you sure about that? It's not like if you tell a thief that stealing is bad, they won't steal any more. Also, a counter point would be, t…
Before thinking about passing anti-online-abuse legislation in all countries (which, like you, I'm not very sure would be effective), we should first agree that online abuse is actually a bad thing, with real negative consequences. Then, we can figure out what we, as individuals, can do to alleviate the problem, like ceasing any sort of collaboration with a known abuser (just an example; haven't thought it through).
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Harassment isn't. One of the big points of the article is that when law enforcement doesn't act that is justification that the action is legal and thus "free speech". Except that law enforcement almost never acts against online harassment. There are plenty of laws restricting free speech when it harms others, and I'd hope you agree that some of the examples in the article crosses the boundary into things that should…
The boundaries of harassment are very blurry and tend to favour the powerful. For example, some of the campaigns against online harassers look even more like harassment than the actions they're going after people for: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/online-trolls-w... Except that because it's the press harassing people to the point of suicide, we don't see anything wrong with it.
People are not happy with the press hounding people to suicide. The Daily Mail has a nasty track record of outing LGBTQ people, for example.
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#157He went to jail for something he shouldn't have because he didn't go to jail for something he should have. That's karma for ya.
I'd like to believe that. It would certainly be nice if it were true. Unfortunately it's not. Weev went to jail for reasons that had nothing to do with the bad things he did. And I think this is worth pointing out, because unjust laws are not selective like karma; if we tolerate them when they target assholes, it's not long before they start targeting innocent people.
Maybe that's not a good thing, but it sure worked in this case.
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#158Plenty of people hate brands. Microsoft, Ford, Chevy, Walmart, Green Bay Packers. You try to turn yourself into a brand, you're going to pick up hate because you're a brand not because you're a person and hating brands is culturally seen as a great idea that should be emulated as much as possible. So trying to fix hatred toward humans is pretty much a waste of time when the root problem is hatred directed at brands. Even if they are "personal" brands. Or rephrased whatever is done to fix this (if anything) the blowback will eliminate brand hatred (umm, good luck with that BTW). No more hating some random female programmer or journalist means no more hating walmart or ISIS or the Jews or Obama (oh wait Obama is a dude not a brand, well, he is both, whatever).
The other aspect is anonymity mismatch where semi-anonymous people are attacking very non-anonymous victims. The solution proposed over and over is less anonymity for attackers. Removal of identity from the victims would work just as well. This merges in with "personal brands" paragraph above. If supposedly you truly want to promote a message and not a brand, that brand being yourself of course, you'd do it for the cause and not the fame. Unless you really are promoting yourself as a brand using a message as a tool to gain fame, and unfortunately gains attacks.
Combine the two concepts and a "famous" non-anonymous brand, which happens to be an individual, will get a heaping dose of trolling for deep seated cultural reasons related to what it means to be a brand and what it means to be famous (and not famous). Good luck fixing that by getting distracted by "brands are people too" and "be nice to people", its the wrong tactic to fix it. You're trying to install deck screws with a hammer.
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#159I'm grateful that I can read the author's account of her experiences, and her analysis of what is going on sociologically. Her story is utterly shocking to read and I feel terrible for her. The general phenomenon of misogynist trolling, and in particular the wave of misogyny masquerading as #gamergate has been astonishing to read about. There's something deeply, deeply disturbing and raw going on here and it is hard…
The point of the article linked is exactly that: separate out the misogyny from the trolling. Expose how the trolls (or that particular troll) use any kind of story that they can construct, be it misogyny, misandry, censorship, whatever people at large hate or fear, to construct polarizing narratives aimed at damaging individual people. I response to your implied question why this is perceived as much more interestin…
Re: Trouble at the Koolaid Point
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point of the article linked is exactly that: separate out the misogyny from the trolling. Expose how the trolls (or that particular troll) use any kind of story that they can construct, be it misogyny, misandry, censorship, whatever people at large hate or fear, to construct polarizing narratives aimed at damaging individual people. I response to your implied question why this is perceived as much more interestin…
I don't think you can separate ideology and morality entirely from this. Even the statement "it's wrong to harass people for entertainment" is ideological.