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Announcing a specification for PHP

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Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#151

Post by Pacabel »

Dewie wrote: post #145
Pacabel wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't assume that just because an account is new that the person behind the account hasn't been reading the site for years.

That's why I said "presumably", and only referring to posting on HN, specifically (i.e. could have had previous accounts). This is very subjective, but I find people who (again, presumably) haven't been involved in a community who all of a sudden start right off the mark by posting in that community with a phrases like "HN hipsters", to be rude.

I don't think it was an attempt to be rude.

"Hipster" is a term commonly used to describe those who advocate so-called "Web 2.0" technologies like Ruby on Rails, JavaScript, HTML5, NoSQL, and so on. These people openly admit that they dislike the previous generation of web development technologies built around languages/platforms like Perl, PHP, and Java.

There are many of those people here, so it makes sense to refer to them collectively, especially given their typical stance toward PHP. Asking them to revisit their current state of PHP is a reasonable enough request.

Now, "hipster" is also often used as a derogatory term, too. It's quite understandable, after dealing with some of those kind of people. But I don't think it was used in that sense in the earlier comment.

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#152

Post by pbiggar »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #102
superuser2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are languages whose communities everybody hates, but it doesn't seem to be that everybody hates Ruby or Clojure or whatever. Just that everybody hates their trendiness.

I haven't found the Clojure haters yet but I can find a Ruby hater without looking too hard.

Clojure is the language I hate the least!

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#154

Post by Gigablah »

DigitalSea wrote: post #108
warmbytes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Laravel framework[1] is a good place to start, it's quite well designed and elegent. It requires at least PHP 5.4. [1] http://laravel.com/

Laravel alone was enough to bring me back to PHP. It seriously has made PHP exciting again (I come from a Codeigniter and Zend background). It takes all of the things people love about Ruby on Rails and brings them to a PHP framework utilising modern features like traits alongside the fantastic selection of packages like Cashier. The even more surprising aspect of Laravel isn't how great it is, but rather the fact it…

> The even more surprising aspect of Laravel isn't how great it is, but rather the fact it was built by one guy

... using mostly 3rd party components, the majority from Symfony. So no, it's not "built by one guy".

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#155

Post by Gigablah »

hamburglar wrote: post #104
revscat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contrary to what many HN hipsters seems to believe, PHP is quite a capable language, and HHVM / Hack is really pushing things forward. This attitude really frustrates me. I'm a developer with over 20 years of experience. I don't use PHP because (a) I have had poor experiences with it in the past, (b) I am enjoying my current stack (Java8/Clojure/Groovy), and (c) would go with stacks like RoR over PHP if I had to ch…

Agree. PHP started itself out with the handicap of a lot of shitty misfeatures, and now that they've beaten it into a state that it's possible (though in no way encouraged) to write decent code in it, anybody who doesn't put on a "PHP: It's not that bad!" party hat gets called a hater. I'm afraid they're going to have to show me reasons it's actually superior to other languages before I'm going to jump on the train.…

> a fair glance

If you're going to harp on the most unbelievably trivial things, no, you never intended to give it a fair glance.

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#156

Post by ayrx »

Pacabel wrote: post #144
duaneb wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's really more about the talent of your team than the language you choose to write your app(s) in. If you have a talented team, why on earth did you choose PHP?

It's too bad to see that your comment was voted down. It's a legitimate question, deserving of an answer. It isn't the late 1990s any longer. Perl and PHP aren't the only viable options available for web development. We have more alternatives now than ever before. It was one thing when a team chose to use PHP because it was all that their preferred hosting provider supported, for instance, but those days are long gon…

Especially since platforms like Heroku makes deploying a Python or RoR app in 15 minutes really simple.

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#157

Post by jasonlotito »

Dewie wrote: post #132
revscat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contrary to what many HN hipsters seems to believe, PHP is quite a capable language, and HHVM / Hack is really pushing things forward. This attitude really frustrates me. I'm a developer with over 20 years of experience. I don't use PHP because (a) I have had poor experiences with it in the past, (b) I am enjoying my current stack (Java8/Clojure/Groovy), and (c) would go with stacks like RoR over PHP if I had to ch…

Meanwhile, that user presumably has the impressive track record of 2 days of posting on HN, making him/her a true expert on the HN crowd.

2522 days here. He's pretty much spot on. You, however, with your trivial sub-500 day membership, don't understand why calling out such things are immature and not welcomed here on HN.

Seriously, calling people out merely for their account age? Really? You really think that's a valued contribution? I mean, your comment amounts to nothing more than a weakly flung insult.

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#158

Post by Daishiman »

Gigablah wrote: post #155
hamburglar wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. PHP started itself out with the handicap of a lot of shitty misfeatures, and now that they've beaten it into a state that it's possible (though in no way encouraged) to write decent code in it, anybody who doesn't put on a "PHP: It's not that bad!" party hat gets called a hater. I'm afraid they're going to have to show me reasons it's actually superior to other languages before I'm going to jump on the train.…

> a fair glance If you're going to harp on the most unbelievably trivial things, no, you never intended to give it a fair glance.

That, by itself, is not trivial.

Compounded with a hundred small little annoyances, it makes the code comparatively unpleaseant.

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#159

Post by korzun »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #39
maaaats wrote: post #23

After recently having to work with modern PHP, I have to say a lot of the criticism of the language is unfounded. It's changed a lot since I first used it. But the stdlib is still hard to manage. Different naming conventions, different order on the parameters for functions that do almost the same thing, and every function is global. Couldn't they keep all that for backwards compatibility, but create more sane wrapper…

Nikita proposes methods on primitive types: http://nikic.github.io/2014/03/14/Methods-on-primitive-types... Myself, I like this proposal.

I like it too, it's clean. But reality is that PHP will have to be backwards compatible.

Which means you will see old function based implementations and new object based implementations.

Image dealing with both implementations within the same code base? Eek.

Re: Announcing a specification for PHP

#160

Post by eropple »

dubcanada wrote: post #150
Dewie wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I said "presumably", and only referring to posting on HN, specifically (i.e. could have had previous accounts). This is very subjective, but I find people who (again, presumably) haven't been involved in a community who all of a sudden start right off the mark by posting in that community with a phrases like "HN hipsters", to be rude.

Alright, I'll say it then. I've had an account for 1300~ days, 3 times as long as you and I've been reading for longer then that. HN hipsters dislike PHP.

So do scarred ex-PHP-developers.

Divining which is which from posts is a dicey proposition.

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