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Diversity and Startups

blog.ycombinator.com

151–160 of 218 posts

Re: Diversity and Startups

#151
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly speaking, competition definitely creates sex-based selection-bias. Men self-select into competitions more than women, and are more motivated by them. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-wise/201210/when-c... https://www3.nd.edu/~wevans1/fresh_honor_seminar/vesterland.... I am not saying men are more capable, just more likely to self-select into the competition. Read up on what professional coaches of wo…

We work in a deeply, irretrievably competitive industry. The ability to thrive in a competitive environment is a requirement at many, perhaps most, startups. Women perform in the industry just fine, but are victimized by the perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.

Your question was, "Why is competition a diversity problem?" The answer is "science indicates that competition motivates genders differently". The fact that our industry is deeply, irretrievably competitive is (imho) part of why it's deeply, irretrievably gender-skewed.

(Caveats: you're right that women perform in the industry just fine. Also, many women are motivated and successful in competitive environments, and those women are negatively affected by perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.)

Re: Diversity and Startups

#152
post #12
post #4

Glad the issue's being addressed, but sad that it dodges race almost completely. Making diversity all about gender is effectively playing the topic on "easy mode." Kinda lame, honestly.

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. (we did include a stat on international founders, many of which are not white.) i don't think we're playing this on "easy mode", but i'm sorry you feel that way.

Agreed. A lot of the race issues are closely tied to class issues. The gender issue isn't.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#153
post #41

What about class? Ivy League Parents -> Private School -> SAT tutoring -> Ivy League College -> Investment by Ivy League VC -> Acquired by Ivy League Tech Company vs Poor parents -> Shitty Public School -> High School Drop Out -> Programmer at Ivy League Tech Company (maybe) There's a reason most of the big tech companies are from Ivy League graduates. And you can't ignore how many successful startups only happened b…

> What about class?

The issue of "class" doesn't have nearly enough political clout in this context in order to get a mention from any important person. Gender does, though, for obvious slightly related historical reasons. The only hope that class itself can get a mention is by piggy-backing on the issue of gender.[0]

The topic of Diversity in Tech shows that 1) hacker types aren't as unsuspectible to being political as they historically may have thought, when their career and businesses start to be influenced by their own reputations. 2) Diversity seems to largely just inspire sympathy for whatever issue which has enough political influence to actually be kind of threatening, which seems to be very convenient.

My point is; assuming that there was never any movement or awareness of inequity in tech, what would have been the prevailing attitude? Well, it seems that "meritocracy" is big in tech culture. What is the attitude now? Meritocracy, with the stipulation that your gender can cramp your style. Has the attitude changed all that much, really? Or has it perhaps stayed the same, with some lip service in the general direction of gender issues for good measure?

"Tech" in this context refers to tech in America. That makes for an industry (at least a subset of which) that is known for having the belief in a meritocracy, which exists in a country that historically has had a strong collective belief in meritocracy. The archetypical hacker is someone who at a very young age felt the calling of the computer[1] and learned himself (or herself!) to program with some cruddy manual. I am not exaggerating by calling it a calling: if you didn't feel that calling to program your calculator in the second grade of elementary school, then tech was probably not for you, whether you're a boy or a girl. Now? All of the sudden environmental factors like culture, opportunity, other kids who tinker with computers, matter. Wow, all of a sudden tech types are starting to talk in sociological terms rather than black and white simplifications.

Old-school hackers (those who have the experience and connections to be political) haven't struck me as being very "sociological". To them, there are four kinds of people: hackers, java developers (snorts), managers, and everyone else (mostly tech-illiterates). Hackers are self-made, passionate people. Java developers and managers are sell-outs. Tech-illiterates just don't care. Hell, they probably don't even have a job they like, passionless peasants. But wait, now you're saying that passionate developers can come from all walks of life, that there isn't some universal Calling of The Computer that happens around ages 5-8, that passionate people can be scared away/demotivated by things incidental to tech and not just power through it, that not everyone has had access to a computer since a young age, that a professional work culture can discourage the people who are working in it enough to quit, even though the deficiets are not really law breaking but discouraging in a subtle, insidious way?

Wow. These hacker types sure get more reflected when their careers and reputations depend on how they look to the outside world, as opposed to when the only people they would risk offending were users of some inferior editor or programming language.

[0] User NaitJones also mentions black men, a class of people who in his experience doesn't get nearly as much air time when it comes to diversity in tech as the usual classes of people.

[1] preferably sometime in the 80s or earlier, to get some creds with the millenials for having hacked on "low spec PCs".

Re: Diversity and Startups

#154

> Specifically, we’d like the community to help by downvoting comments that make HN an unwelcoming place to anyone. That's only a solution for half of the problem on Hacker News. The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics.

Do you really want a meaningful discussion, or a discussion where PC opinions are upvoted and critical voices are downvoted/banned by dang? There are a lot of us who think that the code you write matters more than the gonads you carry or the color of your skin. We're quickly becoming pariahs as our workplaces become more politicized. I don't know why more people don't understand that equality of opportunity is perfec…

I don't know why more people don't understand that equality of opportunity is perfectly compatible with inequality of outcomes

It's an easy theoretical thing to understand, it would be good to see equality of opportunity in practice.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#155
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We work in a deeply, irretrievably competitive industry. The ability to thrive in a competitive environment is a requirement at many, perhaps most, startups. Women perform in the industry just fine, but are victimized by the perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.

Your question was, "Why is competition a diversity problem?" The answer is "science indicates that competition motivates genders differently". The fact that our industry is deeply, irretrievably competitive is (imho) part of why it's deeply, irretrievably gender-skewed. (Caveats: you're right that women perform in the industry just fine. Also, many women are motivated and successful in competitive environments, and t…

No. The industry must be competitive. Companies compete in the market. People must stop promoting the fiction that women are poor competitors. That's a stereotype that just happens to be awfully convenient for male entrepreneurs.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#156
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The belief that African Americans were literally inferior to European Americans animated most of 20th century racism, so this observation is probably less helpful than your otherwise clear writing makes it sound. "Girls" is probably not the word you want to be using, by the way.

> The belief that African Americans were literally inferior to European Americans animated most of 20th century racism, so this observation is probably less helpful than your otherwise clear writing makes it sound. I'm afraid I may have implied something I didn't mean to imply. I'm not sure what you mean by "this observation". I didn't mean to imply that people see girls as "literally inferior". Just that people prob…

If you really want to address both women and girls, may I respectfully suggest trying the phrase "women and girls"?

Re: Diversity and Startups

#157
post #39

Let's say I have a magic wand which will make all -isms go away in one waving. I waved, -isms went away and now what? Where do I hire skilled black female CoffeeScript developers? How many of them do actually exist? I'm insider/outsider - I live in the US now, in Bay Area, but I went to school in the country which doesn't even exist anymore, while my daughter goes to the one of the best middle schools around here. An…

I was that girl. You were my mother in a lot of ways (my mom is a programmer) the problem becomes more endemic in high school and then college where you have to start becoming a woman.

Programming in a startup is not a great choice for peak fertility (where I am at...thankfully I consciously only want one kid, so I have time to delay)

Re: Diversity and Startups

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That settles it, everything googled on the internet must be true, especially when they comport with your bigoted view of the world. I mean, I read on the internet that black people were 2/3 human somewhere, must be true.

You can Google for academic literature. I provided some pretty comprehensive citations in my last post. Or you can just ignore the world around you and not be troubled by the problems minorities are facing. Hey, did you know that the unemployment rate is higher for blacks than whites? Does citing that statistic also make me a bigot? Does it make you feel better to ignore that problem too?

It doesn't make sense to do research on race and IQ. Except for people who are looking for scientific sounding reasons to legitimize their age-old racist prejudices.

So to be clear: there is no serious debate about race and IQ to be had. There are no insights to be gained from Race-IQ research.

I don't believe -- not for a second -- that a discussion about race and IQ helps minorities. The idea that we have to engage in a discussion on race and IQ which is based on racist premises otherwise "we are not troubled by the problems minorities are facing" is ludicrous.

Also see http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/the-race...

Re: Diversity and Startups

#159

> Specifically, we’d like the community to help by downvoting comments that make HN an unwelcoming place to anyone. That's only a solution for half of the problem on Hacker News. The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics.

Maybe they are flagged precisely because those topics don't lead to meaningful debates? Take any slightly controversial (or can be spun to be controversial) gender-and-tech issue, submit it to HN: if it gains traction, it will consist of hundreds of posts with two kinds of people who have so little common ground and set of mutual opinions/world-views that they can not do anything but shout past each other. Meaningful discussion? Hardly.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#160

> Specifically, we’d like the community to help by downvoting comments that make HN an unwelcoming place to anyone. That's only a solution for half of the problem on Hacker News. The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics.

Do you really want a meaningful discussion, or a discussion where PC opinions are upvoted and critical voices are downvoted/banned by dang? There are a lot of us who think that the code you write matters more than the gonads you carry or the color of your skin. We're quickly becoming pariahs as our workplaces become more politicized. I don't know why more people don't understand that equality of opportunity is perfec…

> Do you really want a meaningful discussion, or a discussion where PC opinions are upvoted and critical voices are downvoted/banned by dang?

I find it funny. Some controversial or just plain stupid opinion gets posted, dang responds to it with basically "I disapprove of this post soooo much, and I'm glad that HN does too, judging by the downvotes. Pats HN on the head". Then a whole bunch of regular users reply with how awesome his reply was for telling the poster that he was an idiot/bigot.

I mean, they can of course moderate or whatever in whatever way they want to. I just don't understand why so many are fascinated by it.

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