Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dart 1.5

news.dartlang.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 167 posts

Re: Dart 1.5

#151

Post by coldtea »

krainboltgreene wrote: post #148
sethladd wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[disclaimer: I work on the Dart team.] 1) Dart VM runs on the command line and server. You can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, Web sockets, SSL, and more. So the core functionality is all there, out of the box. 2) When people say "node.js", they usually mean at least two different things. Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but I'll try to answer. Node.js is "javascript + v8 + server", and the equivalent f…

> Pay some team to write a proper and complete Rails/Django or at least Flask level framework -- and document it. > Dart VM runs on the command line and server. You can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, Web sockets, SSL, and more. So the core functionality is all there, out of the box. These aren't the same things and likely a major difference between a popular language and a non-popular language.

Pretty much sums up my feeling about the responses too.

It's mostly "we provide the basics, let it to the not-really-that-big community to come up with the stuff you ask for" or "there's already some 10 ho-hum independent efforts for that", instead of: "we (Google), ourselves, will create, guide and provide top tier implementations for those things, like we do with Angular for example".

Re: Dart 1.5

#152

Post by WorldWideWayne »

mythz wrote: post #101
WorldWideWayne wrote: post #77

I just don't trust Google to do languages and developer tools very well. They don't seem to depend on developers enough to bend over backwards for us the way that Microsoft does. Plus, they seem to want to use web tech to build native desktop tools all the time and little things like "keyboard acceleration" don't seem to matter to them because there are no standards for that in web-world.

Not sure what you mean: MS has a history of abandoning its developer platforms and frameworks that thier developers have invested in, so much so that there's no longer a clear UI story for building native desktop windows apps, i.e. VB6, Silverlight, WinForms and WPF are all effectively deprecated. Although they have long support life, when they officially abandon a platform they also refuse to Open Source it so other…

> MS has a history of abandoning its developer platforms and frameworks....VB6, Silverlight, WinForms and WPF are all effectively deprecated...Likewise with XNA...CSF, WCF, etc...

"Deprecated" is just a word that means absolutely nothing here since all of those kits are still fully functional on current versions of Windows (including XNA and the server side stuff that you mentioned). And VB6 is 20 years old! You wanna make a bet that your Android, Dart or Go code will run in 20 years? Android code from 2008 won't even run today mate :) Also, when Google deprecates something - it's usually hooked to a service, so there's no hope to keep using it when it's no longer fashionable (like some are doing with VB6, Foxpro and other really old kits).

> Whilst VisualStudio is a great IDE, I find it a subpar experience without R#.

And I find the lack of a single IDE built and maintained by Google to be sub-subpar. Visual Studio is superb without R#, but even if you don't think so - at least Microsoft is making life easy by offering an IDE that is tuned specifically for the task at hand instead of using some open source pile of junk that tries to do everything. There's nothing to decide when I need to do .NET - I know what tools to use. Meanwhile Google has no comprehensive strategy here and you're forced to cobble together your own toolkit. Blech.

> Another killer feature is that the language and tooling is cross-platform which supports Windows, OSX and Linux.

That's a weakness because "cross-platform" means a crappy non-native Java UI or some half-functional impostor built with HTML - and those tools suck on every platform. No thanks, I like things that are native to my platform please. Besides that, I can certainly do all of my coding on Windows and build and run it on Linux without any problem thanks (because I have been).

I don't really want to spend my time responding to another wall of text or the rest of this one so I'm going to end it here. I will say that Google does some cool stuff in the browser and with Android, but my main point here is that they don't put forth a very comprehensive strategy at all. Most of their developer stuff seems to be created by 20 percenters in their spare time instead of making a concerted effort like Microsoft does.

Re: Dart 1.5

#153

Post by igouy »

mythz wrote: post #132
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your definition of strong sounds different to other peoples. There was entire FixWPF grass roots campaign to petition more investment into WPF, twitter account is at: https://twitter.com/fixwpf they also had a website and blog pleading for MS to keep investing in WPF and fix its issues. WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed with a lot of flexibility th…

> WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed What exactly do you think the FixWPF campaign was about? And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and has smoother performance. > People p…

>>They're not my numbers, that's the actual output from the command-line Console apps...http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te...

Re: Dart 1.5

#154

Post by azakai »

mythz wrote: post #115
azakai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The danger is that the VM has different semantics (for example, integer overflow) than dart2js code. If the same dart code sometimes runs in JS and sometimes in the dart VM, people are going to hit weird bugs. Also, if it is possible to ship dart code by itself - without the JS fallback - then we are going to see sites that don't bother with the JS fallback, and those sites are only going to work in chrome. For both…

Do you have any example other than integer overflow? It's the only difference I've ever heard referenced. The Dart team spends enormous efforts on maintaining JS-compatibility, so much so that it rejects adding any language features that can't efficiently compile to JS.

Another example where the VM and dart2js differ is, as others linked to elsewhere in this discussion, that dart2js relies on undefined/unspecced behavior in browsers,

https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=13285

In other words a dart2js app can break after a browser update, fail to run on a new browser that is fully standards compliant, etc.

Re: Dart 1.5

#155

Post by nailer »

sethladd wrote: post #133
coldtea wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google is even half interested in Dart (which is seems to be, since it pays for the Dart team), why doesn't it do any proper moves to push it, besides for the browser which ain't gonna fly by itself? 1) Properly package and add "batteries" for a server side version of Dart. Pay some team to write a proper and complete Rails/Django or at least Flask level framework -- and document it. 2) Make a Google version of no…

[disclaimer: I work on the Dart team.] 1) Dart VM runs on the command line and server. You can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, Web sockets, SSL, and more. So the core functionality is all there, out of the box. 2) When people say "node.js", they usually mean at least two different things. Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but I'll try to answer. Node.js is "javascript + v8 + server", and the equivalent f…

Can you write tutorials that don't require eclipse? Nobody who makes websites uses eclipse for that.

Re: Dart 1.5

#156

Post by nailer »

tkubacki wrote: post #150
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dart is a platform play influenced by Javascript with some JS interop, but mostly requires its own new libraries and ecosystem, which allows many things to be fixed. Typescript is a layer on top of Javascript and existing Javascript libraries that adds hybrid/latent typing. Typescript doesn't require a new ecosystem, but instead allows enhancements to the existing one. Both approaches are valid. (Disclaimer: MS emplo…

>Typescript is a layer on top of Javascript and existing Javascript libraries With all horrible issues JS has: unpredictable perf, library hell. Also my issues with TS are: 1) what if future ECMA will bring incompatible changes with current TS ? TS will break compatibility or we will have another EEE from MS ? Dart clean break seems like a safer approach. 2) there is no cross-platform IDE for TS (yea I know plugins -…

What's library hell in JavaScript? I've never heard anyone use that term ever.

Any links for the perf issues you mentioned? There's some massive JS apps at Walmart and PayPal.

Re: Dart 1.5

#157

Post by [deleted] »

spankalee wrote: post #53
kasperset wrote: post #7

I would like to use it but Javascript Frameworks and libraries are being developed so rapidly that it gets difficult to choose Dart and plus it is yet to mature. I may be wrong.

Dart's been very stable for a while now, and has a really good library ecosystem already. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about JavaScript frameworks evolving rapidly, just go with anything the supports Web Components. In JavaScript that would be Polymer, X-Tags or Bosonic. In Dart that's Polymer. Or, in either you can write directly to the platform APIs without a library. In my mind there is BWC and AWC: Befor…

[deleted]

Re: Dart 1.5

#158

Post by rezistik »

Rodeoclash wrote: post #129
rezistik wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in theory it's as easy as using AngularDart and compiling the javascript and throwing that in my rails assets? I feel like I knew that and for some reason it blows my mind.

We use a similar stack except using TypeScript with Angular but keep the Rails backend. Essentially your Angular code should boil down to one JS file, one CSS file and be hosted in an index.html. If you're dealing with modern browsers a bit of fiddling with the cross domain policy and the withCredentials flag will allow you to host the static assets anywhere (not the same domain as the Rails box). Otherwise the easie…

After fighting and fighting with the asset pipeline I finally realized I could just use gulp to build to my public folder and completely avoid fucking with it. It was an amazing moment of clarity for me.

Re: Dart 1.5

#159

Post by bzbarsky »

stesch wrote: post #119
jmesserly wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, seriously? I've been using Beta and not noticed any breakage (but that doesn't mean there isn't any). Do you have any more context?

https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=19489

Ouch. It looks like Dart is using Blink's IDL, not the spec IDL, for generating bindings to JavaScript, so it's only really guaranteed to work in Blink...

Re: Dart 1.5

#160

Post by bluepill »

dannyr wrote: post #108

Anybody knows if there's a free DART PDF Book somewhere?

I usually browse the docs when starting with a new topic; the dartlang website has tons of stuff (and the articles are usually kept up to date), it's quite easy to get started.
Post reply on HN