Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#151

Post by pirateking » Sat, May 24, 2014, 10:47 PM UTC

One of the concepts I have been thinking about for an education system is based on this triad:

- Symbol (mathematical languages / abstract interfaces)

- Human (natural languages / human-human interfaces)

- Machine (programming languages / human-computer interfaces)

Any particular subject or area of study is taught and learned using all 3 approaches taken together. Used as a foundational educational framework, this system could have potential to help cross discipline study through the assimilation of fundamental aspects of computer science, cognitive science, linguistics, and math into other fields. This also allows people to skip learning these topics as unpleasant prerequisites, which may not be well integrated with their field's particular goals.

Existing universities and schools will not be able to transition to these sorts of new holistic systems. Entirely new systems based on modern first principles must be created for the future of education.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#152

Post by pistle » Sat, May 24, 2014, 11:33 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #49

withdavidli wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Experienced engineers will still have an advantage in a job search. Few things to consider: - First job: Getting the first one is always the hardest, the whole needs experience, but where do I get experience if no one gives me the chance scenario. Luckily programmers can have highly visable projects. - Job markets do change: It's about supply and demand. US programmers makes more, especially in the SF Bay Area than a…

" First job " That's an outstanding point, especially in today's economy. It sucks that a conventional programming career generally ends at age 35-40, but for someone not wedded to a programming career, and who has a modicum of talent and interest in the field, yeah, that'll get them started. They will then have plenty of time to arrange their first transition into another career, and they will have learned a lot of…

What? Oh shit... I better start packing...

Maybe it's that the explosion in programming careers coincided with a bunch of kids that left school in the run-up to the last tech bubble? They are mostly in that range. Those are the ones who were growing into the web world (and were more likely to stay technically engaged).

I expect we'll continue to see that age slide a bit, though due to the senior programmer income plateau (and supervisory experience accrual), you also have the move to management effect. Many good programmers will become leads, architects, managers etc.

I have no idea why you would think a programming career ever ends in relation to an age? It may also be that people 35-40 don't want to work at companies or with the lifestyle you see around you?

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#153

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, May 24, 2014, 11:59 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #126

nlawalker wrote: post #69

The problem is that 'computational thinking' has become expected of a university education, regardless of major , but universities haven't shifted to meet the need. All the other basic requirements of a university education are filled through entry level classes - credit-fillers that students have to take in order to graduate. This structure works out well for everyone: the university ensures that students are gettin…

I TA'd an entry-level CS 100 class, it counted as a core science credit and covered a good variety of the field of CS with the time it had. The curriculum was something along the lines of: hardware basics, binary math and logic, basic programming, algorithms, computer graphics, crypto, AI. Granted they didn't get very deep into any one topic but a few students came out of that class with the intention of switching to…

CSE 142 at UW is not this, it is geared toward CS and ENGR majors. An "entry-level" 100 class is geared towards non-majors, is quite different.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#154

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, May 25, 2014, 12:11 AM UTC

nlawalker wrote: post #10

kremlin wrote: post #7

I didn't understand this: "10% of Princeton’s students are computer science majors Far more at MIT 10% of Princeton’s faculty are unlikely to ever be in computer science! Ditto" It's the last two lines I don't understand. 10% of currently existing faculty are not likely to work in the CS department? Or it's unlikely that in the future 10% of Princeton faculty will work in the CS department? And the 'ditto'? Far more…

I think he's saying that "it's unlikely that Princeton will ever have 10% of its faculty dedicated to computer science". Despite the demand, universities want to remain balanced and avoid becoming trade schools. "Ditto" means "same for UW"; Ed Lazowska is the department chair at UW.

> Ed Lazowska is the department chair at UW.

He was the department chair at UW when I was a CSE student in 1995 (and through when I graduated in 1998). He definitely isn't anymore (I hope!).

He does have the Bill and Melinda chair of computer science, but this is something else entirely. The current chair of the department seems to be Hank Levy.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#155

Post by graycat » Sun, May 25, 2014, 12:21 AM UTC

asdfologist wrote: post #133

graycat wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early in my career in software I was making six times what a high end, new Camaro cost. That might be $300 K now.

Early in his career, Bill Gates was making millions of dollars. I never saw any convincing data on HN to back up the claims - it's always an anecdotal data point here and there. My guess is that a small fraction of the engineers actually make the stated figures, and confirmation bias leads HNers to believe that's the median pay.

Gates was making millions when he licensed DOS -- he was quickly worth $300 million and because he owned a big fraction of Microsoft.

When I was making six times what a new Camaro cost, I was just a 'worker bee' on a salary working on mostly military applied math and software around DC.

I didn't think that the income was so great: A new, two story, traditional, center hall floor plan house on a 1/4 acre lot cost three or four times what I was making. So, I didn't really have money enough to buy a house and support a family.

For $300 K in Silicon Valley, there is considerable question if that is enough to buy a nice house, say, 1/4 acre lot, two car garage, full basement, good insulation, central HVAC, four bedrooms, two baths, powder room, walk in closets, LR, DR, eat in kitchen, family room, deck and support a family.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#156

Post by enrmarc » Sun, May 25, 2014, 12:43 AM UTC

Here in southern Europe is totally different. $90K for a new grad? That's incredible. Here, the majority of new grads earn about €15-25K. Take a look: https://www.infojobs.net/madrid/analista-programador-j2ee/of...

(Says: J2EE Analyst with 3-5 years of experience and a lot of another requirements => €27-30K)

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#157

Post by marincounty » Sun, May 25, 2014, 12:55 AM UTC

A note to poor kids, or kids who don't want to rack up huge student loans listening to some some Blow Gard who didn't stay current, and spends a month talking about history of CS. Many of you can learn the employable CS skills on your own, with the help of the Internet, of course.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#158

Post by novaleaf » Sun, May 25, 2014, 1:01 AM UTC

This slide deck is misleading. CS is supply constrained, not demand.

I went to UW and wanted to major in computer science. At that time (1997), they accepted 80 students per year into the program.

80.

Guess how many students applied to the program every year? More than 1500. The supply was/is so constrained they do not consider anybody with less than a 3.9 GPA.

Even today, as per the slide deck, These schools accept 400, 800 students. How many do you think are applying?

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#159

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Sun, May 25, 2014, 1:58 AM UTC

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #99

enraged_camel wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>You should have used one of the many professions that currently involve no coding at all as an example. Okay, I'll bite. My dad is an ophthalmologist in Turkey. He runs his own private practice. When he opened the clinic in the early 90s, he quickly realized that keeping track of patient records in paper format was not efficient. So he taught himself Microsoft Access (which came out in 1992!) and wrote his own pati…

I'm still not convinced by those examples. My reasoning is opportunity cost. If you have to learn to code to write some software, and then write it yourself, you will generally be less efficient at it than contracting someone else to do so. Furthermore, the contractor has a chance of potentially reselling the software to other clients (thus increasing efficiency even more), which you do not. If it was cheaper for you…

Well, I agree that non-professionals probably should avoid writing anything complicated, as there is a high risk that they will make bad mistakes.

However, that IMO does not mean that it's not good for essentially everyone to have at least some basic knowledge of programming and CS basics. For one, communicating your needs to a professional is also pretty costly, especially so when the task at hand also needs specialized knowledge from your own field (be it that communicating the requirements is a lot of work upfront or that the project in the first (few) round(s) doesn't end up doing what you expected it to do - not exactly unheard of in the software world), and secondly, even if the problem that you need to solve is too difficult for you to solve with your basic knowledge, that basic knowledge might still be very helpful in communicating the problem to the professional, as you might be able to see what kind of information the professional needs in order to help you. Plus, it might allow you to better select a good professional - the risk of hiring someone who isn't actually all that much of a professional is pretty real, after all, so adding to the costs of not learning and doing it yourself.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#160

Post by hga » Sun, May 25, 2014, 2:08 AM UTC

novaleaf wrote: post #158

This slide deck is misleading. CS is supply constrained, not demand. I went to UW and wanted to major in computer science. At that time (1997), they accepted 80 students per year into the program. 80. Guess how many students applied to the program every year? More than 1500. The supply was/is so constrained they do not consider anybody with less than a 3.9 GPA. Even today, as per the slide deck, These schools accept…

That could be an "it depends". I can believe a lot of public universities have quotas on CS undergrads (and other majors, especially ones that require labs, and until recently as these things go that was a big issue for CS), but it's the mark of a good private school that if an undergraduate wants to major in X, they'll find a way. CMU is the only exception I know to this, has a quota of about 135 CS students the last time I checked.

According to this page http://www.statista.com/statistics/183995/us-college-enrollm... , as of 2011 61% of students enrolled in public colleges. That's for students at all levels, however (you can use this page to subtract those, but it's breakdown is by gender: http://www.statista.com/statistics/236654/us-post-baccalaure... ).