Live data from Hacker News

Inclusiveness at Mozilla

brendaneich.com

151–160 of 196 posts

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#151

Brendan Eich has now publicly committed to... 1. Include LGBT individuals in making decisions regarding discrimination and inclusivity. 2. Continue health benefits for same-sex partners. 3. Uphold anti-discrimination policies. 4. Create new initiatives to reach out to those who feel marginalized. 5. Support an initialize for bringing under-represented people (including LGBT individuals) into tech. And apparently he i…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of...

> According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138 statutory provisions[1] in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. These rights were a key issue in the debate over federal recognition of same-sex marriage.

For 2012 he proactively spent good money to ensure LGBT should not get those benefits, rights and privileges. That is why people are upset with this and find it hard to let it slide or be a personal matter.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of... > According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138 statutory provisions[1] in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. These rights were a key issue in the debate over federal recognition of same-sex marriage.

Interesting, thanks. I'm not in the US so my context is weak. My reaction would be to get rid of the provisions. In a free society, the government will have no role in the bedroom. Extending it into micromanaging relationships is a step in the wrong direction. The best code is the code we throw away.

The vast majority of rights that are bound to marriage in the us have nothing whatsoever to do with "the bedroom" but rather practical matters like visiting your chosen spouse in the hospital or not having your non-citizen spouse deported or receiving benefits if your spouse is killed while serving in the military. Another good example is the right to file taxes jointly which can have a huge impact on your joint income. Many of these things couldn't be covered by contract and even when they can technically be covered like allowing someone to make end of life decisions for you it costs money which opposite sex couples dont have to pay and contracts are frequently ignored by people like hospital staff who don't understand the law. When your partner is in the hospital suffering you shouldn't be stuck debating contract law with its staff and a single status, legal marriage, makes it crystal clear to all. While I do wish there was a code deprecation review committee in congress to eliminate things like financially favoring married couples at tax time practically speaking legally recognizing same sex marriage gets us much closer to equal treatment under the law much faster than debating each of those 1000+ rights individually. People in unrecognized same sex marriages are being actively harmed by their exclusion right now so IMO sitting around debating the perfect solution instead of moving forward pragmatically is harmful behavior.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#153
post #146
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general. So long as humans partake in decision-making, decisions will be made according to the minds involved. I would worry about the possible impact of Brendan's personal beliefs if I thought that he truly has a heartfelt disdain for whole classes of people, but as far as I can tell, he doesn't. The question of whether to support gay marriage doesn't always reduce to bigotry and homophobia. In Brendan's…

>traditional idea of marriage Ok, I have a question. What exactly do these people think a traditional marriage is? Marriage is always and has always evolved with the times, culture, and societal norms and thinking. It wasn't until recently that we even married for love (love marriages) or selected our own spouse. Previously, marriages were more like a business transaction. A transfer of property from father to husban…

[deleted]

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#154
post #18

I have commented on this issue before [0]. I've been thinking about this again. After reading this I think he still stands to his opinion, that he personally thinks gay marriage is wrong. Obviously he's an idiot, but I think even idiots are entitled to their opinion as long as it doesn't interfere with his work at mozilla . I think that is also what he's trying to say with his blog post. I think he made it pretty cle…

The issues in my mind are the thought processes that lead him to hold his opinions. Those processes generated a prejudiced world view - one held strongly enough to affect behaviour to extend of spending money to bolster that prejudice. Are those the thought processes you want in control of one of the world's most impactful technology companies?

He's arguing for compartmentalisation[1]. This is how most religious people handle clashes between religious beliefs and the world: some topics are tagged for a religious worldview (whose defining feature is unassailable dogma), other topics aren't. In his case there's probably a jagged line that separates his professional duties to LGBT people in the tech community vs his political act against other LGBT people via Prop 8. People who are at the intersection (rarebit) threaten this world view, and the best he can do is handle them case by case[2] while trying very hard not to draw more general conclusions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_(psycholo...

[2] https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/community-and-diversity/

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#155
post #146
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general. So long as humans partake in decision-making, decisions will be made according to the minds involved. I would worry about the possible impact of Brendan's personal beliefs if I thought that he truly has a heartfelt disdain for whole classes of people, but as far as I can tell, he doesn't. The question of whether to support gay marriage doesn't always reduce to bigotry and homophobia. In Brendan's…

>traditional idea of marriage Ok, I have a question. What exactly do these people think a traditional marriage is? Marriage is always and has always evolved with the times, culture, and societal norms and thinking. It wasn't until recently that we even married for love (love marriages) or selected our own spouse. Previously, marriages were more like a business transaction. A transfer of property from father to husban…

More to the point, Brendan's "traditional view of marriage" would be relative to whatever context he grew up in, and the traditions at the time. That's how I believe the term is meant in general.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#156
post #17

I think this is 95% satisfactory. It's unreasonable to demand that someone change their mind about something (and would you believe it if he claimed he had?), but it's imperative to be sure that his personal opinion will not bleed into his executive function. He knows he's outnumbered, and on the wrong side of history. But he recognizes that he can't change himself on demand. It's the best we can hope for in an hones…

>It's unreasonable to demand that someone change their mind about something (and would you believe it if he claimed he had?)

It can happen. Take New York Senator Mark Grisanti as an example. He ran on the campaign against gay marriage. When the vote came up for the Marriage Equality Act, he studied the issue extensively and changed his mind. He voted "yes" on the bill. The bill passed despite needing a couple Republican votes "yes" in order to do so.

Watch the speech he gave when voting. It is really inspiring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEfN26t5yk8

"I would not respect myself if I didn't do the research, have an open mind, and make a decision, an informed decision, based on the information before me"

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#157
post #141

Brendan Eich has now publicly committed to... 1. Include LGBT individuals in making decisions regarding discrimination and inclusivity. 2. Continue health benefits for same-sex partners. 3. Uphold anti-discrimination policies. 4. Create new initiatives to reach out to those who feel marginalized. 5. Support an initialize for bringing under-represented people (including LGBT individuals) into tech. And apparently he i…

Because he actively went out to limit peoples rights. Those who are silent on the matter are not actively harming LGBT people and I think it would be known if the companies were not inclusive. In the world of businesses (and even Mozilla) it's generally wise not to take people at face value and let their actions do their talking. So far the only action is a negative and so he is judged in the way he is. I would also…

> So far the only action is a negative

It's not his only action, although it may be the only action people are interested in, or the only action that we remember because it has drawn so much attention. I would be interested in a more comprehensive history of Brendan's life.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#158
post #96

Wait, wait, hold on. Folks, this man isn't a politician, he isn't a social crusader, he isn't using his position as a platform. At worst, he's rich. He hasn't taken the throne, or even government office; he's the CEO of a private corporation that makes web browsers of all things. Now, sure, he might be against gay marriage. And you might disagree, and have a variety of principles to back your position. But why do we…

Brendan went out of his way to donate a thousand dollars to prevent a group of people from sharing the same right as everyone else. Allowing it would have harmed no one. Not him, not them, not anyone. There are no negative downsides, other than a subset of religious individuals who wish to impose their strictures onto all of society feeling less in control of their lives. I have a hard time accepting, as a leader, so…

>I have a hard time accepting, as a leader, someone who goes out of their way to donate to an anti-gay campaign whose aim is to do nothing other than deny the LGBT community something out of spite. It's not his beliefs that are the issue; it's that he's trying to impose them on all of society.

I wouldn't really say "imposing" is the right term. I think "trying to impose" something on all of society would look more like something along the lines of bribing politicians. Instead, he donated to a campaign that aligned with his belief. Aren't campaigns a mode of free speech by which people can get their message out there? Moreover, aren't beliefs (at least strongly held ones anyways) supposed to be something that a person is willing to speak out about? So, If you claim that he can hold beliefs but that he shouldn't be allowed to speak about them, then it really does become a situation where you deny his right to hold his belief.

Also, isn't a society a collection of people who try to figure out what rules everyone should play by? I like to think of these rules as a sort of LCD, something that everyone can agree on. And, as the members try to alter the rules, they also alter the LCD. The catch is that if one of the LCD "rules" is being reviewed, one side can't just shove it down the other's throat. If that happened, then the LCD would cease to be a LCD and society would then be torn apart. That's why a proper exchange of thoughts is important.

That, I think, also means that the exercise free speech should be accompanied by the willingness to dialogue in a respectful manner with people with opposing views. "But", you say, "he refused to make a public statement on his donation." I think it doesn't matter because it's hard to have that sort of meaningful conversation with a crowd/mob. So, while boycotting Mozilla is fine and all, I think the best course of action would still be a one-on-one discussion. Luckily, it seems like he is doing that at Mozilla with his coworkers.

Finally, this is a separate point from the one above, but if someone claimed to hold a belief but was unwilling to defend it in public, wouldn't that be telling about their qualities as a leader? Shouldn't a leader be someone who is willing to take the vision of his followers, hold fast to them, and proclaim them to the world no matter the circumstance? So, assuming we believe his statement about the separation of his personal beliefs and Mozilla's goals, wouldn't that actually lend credence to his ability to lead?

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#159

Wait, wait, hold on. Folks, this man isn't a politician, he isn't a social crusader, he isn't using his position as a platform. At worst, he's rich. He hasn't taken the throne, or even government office; he's the CEO of a private corporation that makes web browsers of all things. Now, sure, he might be against gay marriage. And you might disagree, and have a variety of principles to back your position. But why do we…

"At worst, he's rich." I don't understand negative connotation you put here.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#160

Brendan Eich has now publicly committed to... 1. Include LGBT individuals in making decisions regarding discrimination and inclusivity. 2. Continue health benefits for same-sex partners. 3. Uphold anti-discrimination policies. 4. Create new initiatives to reach out to those who feel marginalized. 5. Support an initialize for bringing under-represented people (including LGBT individuals) into tech. And apparently he i…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of... > According to the United States Government Accountability Office (GAO), there are 1,138 statutory provisions[1] in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. These rights were a key issue in the debate over federal recognition of same-sex marriage. For 2012 he proactively spent good money to ensure LGBT should not…

Prop 8 was in 2008, not 2012.
Post reply on HN