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Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

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Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a practical matter, the less money you have, the less you can fund your attempts to have me killed.

What about folks who think substantial U.S. carbon emission restrictions aren't a smart or effective policy and politically donate to that effect? There are likely a lot of people here who believe passionately that such inaction will lead to an uninhabitable planet. Serious, life-and-death stuff. Worth trying to get someone fired from their tech job?

I think there's a big difference that comes down to motivation. Somebody who tries to get a Nazi elected wants, at some level, for me to die. Thus, I cannot trust them to treat me well.

Similarly, somebody who tries to get a gay marriage ban passed thinks that consenting adults should be prevented from marrying, and since there are no good rational reasons to do that (it's possible that there are some, but none have ever been presented to me, and there has been opportunity) then it indicates not only a prejudice against homosexuals, but a willingness to interfere in their lives. Again, they can't be trusted to treat homosexuals well in other contexts where they might have power.

Somebody who fights against carbon emission restrictions isn't doing it because they want the planet to die. Instead, they have examined the information and come to a different conclusion. You might say it's the wrong conclusion, and I'd completely agree with that, but that is ultimately a failure of brainpower rather than of motivations. They presumably have good reasons for why they act that way, which means they can be reasoned with. That makes it much more feasible to deal with them, and ultimately makes them much less harmful.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#152
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What type of person you choose to head your operations obviously reflects your ideals. It really doesn't matter if Mr. Eich donated 1000 dollars or a million dollars, he opposes basic human rights. And apparently Mozilla is fine with that.

This is silly, almost fascist. What next? If a person doesn't donate to a campaign supporting gay marriage, does that mean the person is a bigot and homophobic?

What a crazy idea, that it's somehow "fascist" to criticize a company based on the political activities of their CEO, but I can only assume "not fascist" to restrict the rights of minorities.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Prop 8 is anything but a Christian law? Oh wait I just tried to rationalize with a guy who compared the Democratic party to the KKK. Nevermind, good luck with being nuts.

I did not compare the Democratic Party to the KKK, I was saying that it was the Democratic Party that primarily supported the KKK during most of its first two incantations. Do not twist my words. If having a basic knowledge of U.S. history is being nuts, then so be it.

I find it hard to believe you don't know that the parties of the 1860's and the parties of today aren't quite the same, but here's a primer:

http://www.livescience.com/34241-democratic-republican-parti...

    So, sometime between the 1860s and 1936, the (Democratic)
    party of small government became the party of big
    government, and the (Republican) party of big government
    became rhetorically committed to curbing federal power. 
Add on the Republican Party's Southern Strategy of the 60's and 70's, and it's pretty clear which of the two parties a KKK member would choose today. If the Southern Strategy isn't familiar, I'll let Ronald Reagan's Campaign Manager sum it up:

    You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.”
    By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires.
    So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights,
    and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now,
    you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things
    you’re talking about are totally economic things and a
    byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.…
    “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the
    busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than
    “Nigger, nigger.”
http://www.thenation.com/article/170841/exclusive-lee-atwate...

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about gay marriage, per se. It's about carving out exceptions to the general writ of legal equality for all guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

Then where's my native (do you still call them 'indians' in the US?) status card, my veteran benefits, and my handicapped parking permit? While we're at it why can't I get maternity leave or diplomatic immunity? I'm actually married (religious ceremony) but not officially 'married' (according to the government) and I don't care nor does it really matter where I live (common-law spouses get benefits anyway). And I'm n…

In the UK, civil partnerships were introduced for same-sex couples, which gave AFAIK the exact same legal rights and tax benefits as heterosexual marriage. However, campaigners for gay marriage said this was not good enough so the Prime Minister eventually pushed through a vote for gay marriage. So it seems the issue wasn't really about legal rights, that just comes along for the ride, it was more about using the word "marriage".

Similar thing when it comes to marriage ceremonies. Why lobby the state to try and force a religious institution to hold a same-sex marriage ceremony when the teachings of that religion are clearly against same-sex relationships? Can't we accept that in the diversity of opinions out there, some are like chalk and cheese? They simply don't go together so why force the issue and make everybody unhappy?

What I find interesting about this last point is that campaigners only focus on the Christian religion. It seems nobody wants to try and force mosques and synagogues to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. Why is that?

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#155
post #92
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world would be a much better place if we could learn to separate the artist's work from the artist's personal deeds and opinions. In what way does that make the world a better place? Why should we celebrate an artist who does shitty things when there is almost certainly someone equally as talented who does not?

Let me know when you're going to start boycotting Picasso paintings.

Why would I need to boycott something I have no use for in the first place?

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#156
post #147

I don't support gay-marriage either ... I've said it before and I'll repeat it again (if necessary). My religious beliefs hold that marriage is between a man and a woman, and I choose to follow my religion because it's something I feel deeply about. Asking me to compromise my religious beliefs or be called homophobic (I'm not), full of hatred (I'm not) or even biased (I'm not) just isn't fair. I've got friends that l…

You mentioned a key part of your moral defense:

    I've never said I was against the various domestic
    partnership rules that allow equal insurance, tax breaks
    and other benefits to committed partners.
That's where you and Eich differ. By donating to the Prop-8 campaign, he was directly supporting state-sponsored discrimination. It goes past personal beliefs when you take steps to strip others of their rights.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#157
post #119
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I would argue that fighting against marriage rights (for LGBT) is our version of Jim Crow laws. History will show that people; all people deserve equal rights and protections under the law. Desegregation took decades, and arguably still isn't completely successful, given laws that disproportionately target black communities. And this isn't about a church refusing to marry someone because of their sexuality. This…

If it's important, shouldn't people be able to have a conversation, and fund a conversation? The supreme court has equated financial contribution with speech, and many of us agree with that position. Therefore, we can only see this as an attempt to ostracize and attack anyone who speaks to the opposite side. This action is chilling on speech, which is exactly what the OP was talking about. Just because you don't see…

> The supreme court has equated financial contribution with speech, and many of us agree with that position.

I think this is the root issue here. SCOTUS declared by fiat that financial contribution is speech. According to our law, it is now.

The people do not see that the same way. Giving lip service is speech, while money is altogether something different. What it is, I do not know.

And it seems much more akin to "buying laws", which I think many people find something terribly wrong in our government today.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about gay marriage, per se. It's about carving out exceptions to the general writ of legal equality for all guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

Then where's my native (do you still call them 'indians' in the US?) status card, my veteran benefits, and my handicapped parking permit? While we're at it why can't I get maternity leave or diplomatic immunity? I'm actually married (religious ceremony) but not officially 'married' (according to the government) and I don't care nor does it really matter where I live (common-law spouses get benefits anyway). And I'm n…

I agree with your reasoning that arbitrary advantages could be viewed as discrimination. I'd argue though that in those cases the goal is to cancel out disadvantages (directly or inderectly) directly related to inherent parts of a person (sex,handicap,race) or are benefits that a person can generally choose to acquire (old age,veteran,handicap;) ).

In the case of maternity leave it cancels out the propensity to fire/not hire a woman because she can get pregnant and is likely to be required to raise the kid for the first few months. Native cards to reduce inherent inequality produced by past events. Handicap to allow the handicapped to function to a level similiar to the non handicapped. Were as age benefits in theory apply to anyone who doesn't croak and presumably if they so desired. Veterans choose to serve the country and are compensated by society at large, admittedly you could argue not all people can join the military so fair point there. Food stamps, just lose all your money.

So onto gay marriage. Marriage is both a legal construct and a religious construct but the government can only recognize the legal part (seperation of church and state). Now the government is currently not recognizing that the couple can be together based on the sex of the partners which is something they can't change (reasonably(you could argue for separate drinking fountains on the basis that skin colour can be medically altered if you think this is reasonable)), you can argue that the marriage is for reproduction but sterile couples can get married, you could argue the child is adversely affected this has been shown not to be the case, you could argue friends will cheat the system but that can already be the case, the issue is the government has no reason to grant the various special right (tax,visitation laws, adoption) to a couple based on the sex of the people in the couple.

The key to that argument is that the government can't use the religious part of marriage as a basis for their decision. It's also worth noting that even if the government allows gay marriage that only guarantees you can get married in a courthouse, nothing about churches would be guaranteed (or in theory enforceable if they decided to say you could).

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#159

There's a common wrong argument against this sort of boycott, but its comparably common rebuttal is subtly wrong as well. common wrong argument : This is a violation of Eich's freedom of speech. subtly wrong rebuttal : The First Amendment protects you against government infringement of free speech (including campaign donations, since money is "speech"), but it doesn't protect you against the social consequences of th…

Non-gays are absolutely a protected class. Sexual orientation is what's protected, not a particular orientation.

A business that discriminates against straight people is just as liable under the law as a business that discriminates against gay people. (This is not, as I understand it, currently illegal under federal law. Many states outlaw it, though.)

The problem is that you see Prop 8 as symmetrical, but it is not. Prop 8 is an attempt to remove rights from a group of people. Opposing prop 8 is not an attempt to remove rights from other people, but rather to grant them to everyone.

The proper analogy would be a hypothetical Prop 88 which seeks to ban straight marriage while allowing gay marriage. Ignoring the complete impossibility of such a thing ever going anywhere, donating money to support the passage of such a proposition would rightfully attract a great deal of negative attention.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#160

What he did is support the disagreement that what is now considered a "right" by an increasingly liberal society was indeed a "right". What is wrong with this? Liberals and gays need to realize that they are often bigots against religion. Those believing the Bible's teachings have a different set of moral standards. I find it ironic that this man is called immoral by liberals and that gays are dubbed the immoral ones…

    The only hate that is being displayed here is by the
    anti-religious groups and individuals.
Aren't you forgetting the people trying to implement state-sponsored discrimination.

    God cannot be proven or dis-proven via science. So how
    do atheists know they are really correct? how do
    religious people? At least the religious people have
    a basis that does not rely on unexplained things. A God
    and a creation are certainly a more plausible and simple
    explanation to our existence then any offered by atheists.
Insane presuppositions aside. The existence of God has nothing to do with equal rights under state laws. Prop 8 wasn't a referendum on whether or not God exists, it was a vote by a 'tyrannical majority' to strip the rights of the minority.

    So who are the real bigots here?
The people who try to deny rights to others.

    Play hard against the opposition, but when they fall
    down (when they are in need of help), show them kindness,
    help them up and continue the competition.
Or just don't actively work to harm other people, that will go much further.
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