Live data from Hacker News

Why you should move that button 3px to the left

gv.com

151–160 of 164 posts

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see a proposed application design or cosmetic change whose justification does not ultimately rely on "this guy's taste is better than that guy's" -- yes designers do sometimes bring out some justifications which are expressed with objective sensibilities but to me they always seem to be rationalizations, in the same way that evolutionary psych seems to be. That is, first see a behavior or a look that se…

You're not working with properly trained designers then. Layouts have certain empirical properties which can be judged objectively: * Conforms to a grid * Internally consistent padding and margins * Information sized and arranged hierarchically according to importance * Proportions conform to the rule of thirds or golden ratio * Internally consistent UX patterns (eg cancel buttons might be always red, confirm buttons…

Those are fundamentals of design but a) they're hardly universal, and b) they only serve to anchor the debate.

A person with that list can't answer you which color the buttons should be, or say, whether a certain button is more like a confirm, info or cancel. They don't tell you how wide is too wide, or whether the hero needs to be above or below this particular content. It's a good starting point, but hardly anyone will be satisfied to be told, "well, the golden ratio is preserved when we make the content area 700 pixels wide" -- again, in the end these discussions always come down to trusting a person's taste.

I've worked with plenty of properly trained designers, whatever is supposed to be proper.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#152

Prove it. Measure it. Demonstrate with data that moving that button 3px to the left will increase sales by X% or customer retention by Y% or whatever our business metrics are. There's a difference between "obsessing over the details" and "tweaking for tweaking's sake". Make sure you're really doing the former and that the particular details you're obsessing over matter measurably.

Yeah. And then you find out exactly why social sciences are progressing so slowly and have such a tough time of getting definite results.

I envy everyone working in natural sciences. Their jobs are immensely challenging, no doubt, but at least they have a clear path forward, more or less. But they are making impressive progress all the time.

Looking at human behaviour is much more challenging (so challenging that hardly anyone has an idea how to do it and most stick with boring unreliable ways that have somewhat kind of worked in the past), fraught with ethical issues, and so on.

Measuring everything is not a realistic goal. Measuring should be done whenever possible and is an awesome tool every designer should be using but it is impossible to employ it for every little change. And it has so far not been possible to develop a general theory of design that would help you decide small things without testing that specific instance of the design.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#153
"When a product is close to launch, I become a perfectionist. Each misaligned element or awkward interaction is like a thorn in my side. "

When a product is close to launch, I become paranoid. I do not want to do any changes, unless critical. There will not be time for another round of testing/regression testing. We have even whole process for that.

He is talking about team moving on other projects, which means he talks about time very close to launch.

It is great when the designer is perfectionist. There is also a time for that and that is NOT close to launch. You absolutely should come up with these changes while the project is far from launch so we can time for fixing them.

You should absolutely NOT suddenly come up with tons of tiny little changes close to release. One of those tiny little changes may break something important and we will have no time to find out.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see a proposed application design or cosmetic change whose justification does not ultimately rely on "this guy's taste is better than that guy's" -- yes designers do sometimes bring out some justifications which are expressed with objective sensibilities but to me they always seem to be rationalizations, in the same way that evolutionary psych seems to be. That is, first see a behavior or a look that se…

You're not working with properly trained designers then. Layouts have certain empirical properties which can be judged objectively: * Conforms to a grid * Internally consistent padding and margins * Information sized and arranged hierarchically according to importance * Proportions conform to the rule of thirds or golden ratio * Internally consistent UX patterns (eg cancel buttons might be always red, confirm buttons…

Is there strong scientific evidence that when one of these is slightly violated, it will negatively impact the user?

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#155
If you have good development practices in place, making a targeted build to prototype 3px UI improvements suggested by ANY trusted team member should be trivial and should be considered. After prototyping the change, it's possible to evaluate whether the suggested lightweight improvement falls into the range of essentially invisible (probably not worth the churn late-game, but fine earlier) to actually awesome (crank a build if you can). Even lightweight changes could break the hell out of some browsers/resolutions, so 3px is not really "free". Hell, 1px is not free if floating elements can cause layout changes or fixed elements can crash into adjoining ones. If you have challenges making and evaluating suggested changes on very rapid timescales, ANYpx is irrelevant in the scope of your other problems and you should trend against change where possible. Also note that I said "trusted" team member - if the team member pushing for design changes is not "trusted" that is a separate consideration - please weight appropriately. If you break the crap out of other areas, yeah, try the 3px at that point if it's a toss-up and the change is orthogonal to other changes. If you pay the price of looking at other changes, try to get the designer's suggested change tested for free. Trust, but verify.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#156
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem of engineers designing UIs is the topic of one of my favorite books: http://www.amazon.com/The-Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum/dp/0672... The problem is that engineers are not very good at UI design. Both from UX and aesthetic standpoints designers are capable of making a better product. A good designer will give a consistently better result than a good engineer in terms of usability, UX, aesthetics and modula…

Cats aren't very good at catching sticks an dogs aren't very good at catching mice. Therefore you can't have the dogs trying to do what a cat can do.... Except design is different. As a developer, once you have worked with some PSD efforts a few times and then worked with real dynamic content then worked with a real client to get the thing to actually convert sales, then worked with the client stats you have got a go…

From my point of view, you haven't worked with good designers at all. All the good designers I know work hard on their research (both theoretical and concrete, regarding their current projects) and user testing afterwards. In many companies designers are required to work with analysts to improve ROI of their products.

Although I completely agree that PSD is a terrible format for web design. I myself have been using Indesign and try to insist on designers using it when I develop.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#157
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tone aside, I can't help but agree. My previous job (web shop) hired supposedly "rockstar" designers on several occasions, and the results were frustrating, time-consuming and in the end, largely worthless. What did not help was that those people had "print design" backgrounds, my bosses loved the rendered (hard) designs, and not having any design or development knowledge themselves, these sorts of ludicrous standard…

To me, a designer sits astride form and function, melding them both. If you're not doing form, then you're an artist, not a designer.

edit: if you're not doing function. whoops.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not call you immature, I called your comment immature. You made your point with an ad hominem on a whole profession of designers who care about pixel alignments, and so I seriously doubt you have significant experience working with designers. > But my point is that the design details that should be obsessed over come way before the traditional pixel pushing session at the end of the job. Things like consistent,…

Can a comment itself be immature? I'm pretty sure only a commenter has the agency to be immature, but anyway that's beside the point :) > You made your point with an ad hominem on a whole profession of designers who care about pixel alignments Nope, at no point did I ever criticise designers who care about pixel alignments. I criticised designers who place too much value on pixel pushing at the end of a project - for…

Of course comments can be immature.

> I criticised designers who place too much value on pixel pushing at the end of a project - for me it's often a red flag.

A lot of the bugs discovered during design QA involve pixel alignment issues. That is one of the main reason why we have design QA. Frankly, if something worse comes out of that (like a bigger interaction design flaw), then there are serious problems that jeopardize the project and somebody in dev or design has royally screwed up.

> works best are for projects more towards the web app end of the spectrum, I will concede that point, but it doesn't mean the design has to be trivial.

Does it really work for web? Even for web, better designs are often stuck with 2 or 3 layouts to manually tune.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not working with properly trained designers then. Layouts have certain empirical properties which can be judged objectively: * Conforms to a grid * Internally consistent padding and margins * Information sized and arranged hierarchically according to importance * Proportions conform to the rule of thirds or golden ratio * Internally consistent UX patterns (eg cancel buttons might be always red, confirm buttons…

Is there strong scientific evidence that when one of these is slightly violated, it will negatively impact the user?

The short answer is no, slight violations of these ideas don’t tend to cause the sky to fall. Indeed, the list of examples given by nikatwork was unfortunate, because some of them are well established with a decent evidence base, but a few are basically just nonsense that has unfortunately somehow become dogma.

For example, a few studies have been performed under controlled conditions to try to determine how typographic details like line length affect measurable performance levels such as reading speed and retention. There are many rules of thumb floating around — “2.5 alphabets”, “8–10 words”, and the like — and it actually does turn out that most of them are reasonable. It also turns out to be unwise to consider line length in isolation, that a wider range of lengths can be used before serious degradation is widely observed than some of the old folklore would suggest, and that having lines too short can also cause serious degradation in reading performance, among other interesting results.

Another good example is the consistency of user interface elements. Numerous usability tests, from formal studies to simple A/B tests on web sites, support the theory that violating a user’s expectations tends to have negative effects, sometimes severe ones. Of course you always have to be careful not to assume too much about what your users’ expectations might be, but things like using green for cancel and red for confirm almost invariably exhibit poor performance with audiences who are used to the opposite convention.

On the other hand, if someone tells you the Golden Ratio is important for keeping some sort of page area proportionate, it’s a good bet that this person should be hunted down and locked away by the maths police. Using precise ratios really does matter in some contexts: if you look at the ratio between the width and height of a piece of A4 paper, it is aiming for exactly √2, which is why two A4 sheets fit neatly into one A3 sheet and so on up and down the scale. However, someone who is advocating use of the Golden Ratio for width/height proportions usually just likes the look of dimensions that are proportioned roughly 5:3, and probably has no hard data to support choosing that over 3:2, 16:9, 1:1, or any other ratio that fits with the rest of the design.

Likewise, if someone advocates picking a colour scheme based on where certain hues fall on a wheel, consider that hue represents only one dimension. The most common colour models for human vision use three, and in practice if you fix the others (typically saturation and lightness) and just choose evenly spaced and/or opposing hues around a colour wheel, the results are rarely good. That means much repeated ideas like choosing analogous or complementary colours are, at best, only part of the story. If you’re using a typical colour wheel for computer graphics that has red, green and blue at 120 degree separations and then cyan, magenta and yellow on the 60s, those ideas are even less helpful, because it turns out that by the time the human eye has detected the light and the human brain has interpreted the resulting signals, those colours aren’t really uniformly spaced around the wheel anyway; see the trichromatic vision and opponent process theories, or the early experimental work of Munsell.

In short, there really is robust evidence that some established design principles are worth following, though rarely do minor variations in design cause major variations in performance. However, there are also some dogmatic assumptions in the design world that get passed on as if they are inalienable truths but in reality have little evidence to support them.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncomfortable with the sheer number of insane managers within our industry.

Having just been asked to move something by 1 em, I agree.

Heh. Eyeballed it, didn't they? "What's that look like, about 1 em?"

:o

Post reply on HN