A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe • Hacker News Board

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#151

Post by wrobbins » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 2:33 AM UTC

eshvk wrote: post #62

Aloha wrote: post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparati…

Just to demonstrate the answer to your question: I'm currently a junior in HS and am going through the process of learning about colleges. Last week, our guidance counselors gave us pamphlets. They were blatantly telling us to pursue liberal arts degrees (such as art or music) even with low job prospects. They were reassuring us that we should follow our passions no matter what. Lots of kids saw right through the promises of success and threw out the pamphlets right away. They really try and convince you that a four year university is the only option.

(I go to a very affluent, competitive HS. I think that the counselors want to maintain their college placement rates even if it means sending kids to college if they are failing high school classes. The system is completely broken or just plain ignorant, but that's just my opinion.)

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#152

Post by m4x » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 2:40 AM UTC

bittercynic wrote: post #144

m4x wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience as an electrician is that there's work available even for completely green newbies who don't know anything useful, and once you've worked for a few years and become a registered tradesman you're pretty much sorted for life. I'm not sure where you're getting these anecdotes about poor pay, high risk of injury, short careers and unstable employment. Most of the guys I work with have had long careers (ofte…

Who do green newbies need to talk to for that kind of opportunity? Years ago I applied with the local IBEW, earned very high marks on the written test and interview, and it took them YEARS* to call me back with an invitation to start the program. By then I had other things going on and couldn't take the opportunity. At the time I had a feeling I wasn't approaching things in an optimal way, but I sure couldn't figure…

The answer to that is probably 'whoever you need to to get the job', though that isn't a lot of help to most young guys who don't yet have enough professional experience to talk their way into work.

It's no different really to getting a job later on in life. If you do a lot of networking then jobs will fall into your lap seemingly without any effort, but if you don't have an introduction then you are probably going to have to do a lot of cold calling and respond to a lot of job applications before you get lucky.

As a new entrant to the work force your best bet is probably to get an intro from a parent or family friend, asking an acquaintance to take you on as a favour. If you can't do that then you either need to try your luck cold calling or learn to hustle

You might have been held back by your high test scores, believe it or not. When I first applied to start my apprenticeship the HR chap was very hesitant to give me a job purely because I had good grades and was currently working as a software developer. He didn't think I was the 'tradesman type' and that I might prefer an office job!

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#153

Post by Tloewald » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 2:58 AM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #118

walkon wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trades are physically hard labor Mike Rowe agrees with you, so what's your point? Of course it is hard. Mike's point is our culture is becoming increasingly averse to engaging in hard, physical labor, even in the cases where compensation greatly exceeds that of many other fields.

Wall street jobs are super stressful. Stressful enough that people not properly suited for it might kill themselves. Programming jobs are mentally taxing. Mentally taxing enough that people not properly suited for it might become depressed, decide that they're a failure, and/or have a very hard time. Jobs in science require math skills that are hard / expensive to acquire, which one might never master or become good…

Actually when you measure stress it turns out that high-flying jobs are not that stressful. It's having no control over your life that causes stress, and being an underpaid peon is the most stressful situation to be in.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#154

Post by spydum » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:05 AM UTC

Fomite wrote: post #143

I've always found it puzzling that many businesses believe that if they can't fill a job, it can't be because they're offering too low a wage - they invariably say the pay is fair. If went around trying to buy bread at what I thought was a fair price, and found no takers, my immediate reaction would not be "Well, bakers just don't want to work hard."

It's a hard pill to swallow when you realize the cost of your business critical resources have gone up. I suspect most business sit in denial until their competitors who are willing to pay it and can figure out a working business model begin to eat into their wallets.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#155

Post by bmelton » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:07 AM UTC

Tloewald wrote: post #153

bmelton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wall street jobs are super stressful. Stressful enough that people not properly suited for it might kill themselves. Programming jobs are mentally taxing. Mentally taxing enough that people not properly suited for it might become depressed, decide that they're a failure, and/or have a very hard time. Jobs in science require math skills that are hard / expensive to acquire, which one might never master or become good…

Actually when you measure stress it turns out that high-flying jobs are not that stressful. It's having no control over your life that causes stress, and being an underpaid peon is the most stressful situation to be in.

That's an interesting stance. I admit that I was speaking generally, but I've had a high-stress job, and left it, because it was insanely stressful. It was exceedingly high paid, and leaving it was indeed a difficult decision, but I definitely felt the stress.

Conversely, I've had a trade skill position, and considered it neither high-stress nor low paid. There are obviously higher paid positions out there, but there are also a bevy of far lower paid positions out there.

I'm curious as to how you discount the stress of high stress positions though. Not necessarily doubting it, but my personal anecdata contradicts it.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#156

Post by pnathan » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:14 AM UTC

walkon wrote: post #114

pnathan wrote: post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> The trades are physically hard labor Mike Rowe agrees with you, so what's your point? Of course it is hard. Mike's point is our culture is becoming increasingly averse to engaging in hard, physical labor, even in the cases where compensation greatly exceeds that of many other fields.

I'm not disagreeing with Mike Rowe there in the least. His point is very well taken, and people without a yen for the academe or the STEM world should very carefully consider a tradesperson's life. But, it's a far cry from the hard work in college compared to the hard work on a construction site. Construction work is, in a very primal way, harder work[1].

I do not see any rational reason not to engage in skilled tradeswork if one has the desire to. It's not my path, but I respect it.

[1] I am so not getting into an debate over this, having done both.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#157

Post by ams6110 » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:15 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #124

stinkytaco wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be a wee bit disingenuous as well. There are a few issues with so called "skilled labor" right out of high school: 1. Skilled jobs are hard jobs. They are often limited to men strictly due to the physical ability required (I used to work as a diesel mechanic and it was simply not a job that could be done by most women). This is obviously not universally true: machining, some welding, virtually all e…

Can you clarify #4? I'm actually struggling to see how my programming skills can apply to other jobs in any meaningful way outside of the realm of programming. I mean, sure, if Microsoft left Seattle today, I could probably find another software company in town to work for. However, I expect at one point in time, machinists could walk into another shop with ease too. There is no reason to believe programmers will alw…

Rowe didn't mention it, but I think that in addition to a number of people who simply aren't willing to work hard, there are a number of people who aren't willing to move to where the work is. This is another change from 40–50 years ago.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#158

Post by pnathan » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:17 AM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #84

_delirium wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas. A problem that makes this particularly bad is that many now don't pay at all until you manage to become qualified as a high-skill specialist. A lot of the low-end work has been automated, which has gutted the traditional pipeline where you start with low-skill jobs and move upwards. It's not just that low-skill welding jobs (say) don't pay w…

As a former electrician, I should mention that trade unions usually have their own forms of college as well, in the form of apprenticeships -- these vary from trade to trade, but at least within the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, you got access to very cheap, job-specific vocational education that combined classroom learning with on-the-job training, and graduated pay as you progress. When I was doi…

Out of curiosity, what kind of benefits (health, retirement) do your family members in the trades typically have? What sort of job stability? Are they unionized?

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#159

Post by pnathan » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:21 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #78

pnathan wrote: post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> the number of immigrants doing these same hard work in unpleasant conditions while native-born "modern Americans" moan about being unable to find work. Are jobs that pay less than minimum wage even offered to citizens or documented immigrants?

I'm not talking about jobs that pay less than minimum wage. In a place and time, (say, before 2008 :-) ) a hard working landscaper where I used to live took home between $15-$25/hr, and often worked 70 hour weeks. As a rule, these people seemed to be Hispanic. Many of them were and are very hard workers.

I don't enquire into people's visa status as a rule of thumb, so I'm afraid I can't answer whether they were being paid under the table or not. However, the pay rates were quite respectable.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#160

Post by pnathan » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:28 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #157

randomdata wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify #4? I'm actually struggling to see how my programming skills can apply to other jobs in any meaningful way outside of the realm of programming. I mean, sure, if Microsoft left Seattle today, I could probably find another software company in town to work for. However, I expect at one point in time, machinists could walk into another shop with ease too. There is no reason to believe programmers will alw…

Rowe didn't mention it, but I think that in addition to a number of people who simply aren't willing to work hard, there are a number of people who aren't willing to move to where the work is. This is another change from 40–50 years ago.

This is a big deal! A documented major shift in US society is that we are no longer moving around as much.

It has been fascinating looking around and seeing the mentality differences between people willing to move (aka adapt) to the world they live in and the jobs they want and the people who are unwilling. IMO, the adaptable people do remarkably better.