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Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

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Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#151

Post by jacalata »

freefrancisco wrote: post #133
jacalata wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a well stated argument, and it's definitely true that you can't look at the tech industry in a vacuum. But I think it would be very difficult to argue both that US/Western/California society is sexist in a way that prevents women from entering the field, and also that all the men that entered the field have magically freed themselves from the sexist cultural biases and attitudes of the larger society they grew…

There is a huge difference between saying "tech industry, you are so innovative, why don't you look at this problem and see if there is something you can do to fix it" and saying "tech industry, you are racist, sexist, misogynist, and you should be ashamed of yourselves". I am all for the tech industry finding solutions to hard problems, and I am all against the tech industry being blamed for something it did not cau…

Yes, and 'tech industry, you are so sexist and should be ashamed of yourselves' is a reasonable response to people saying 'Lack of women in tech is clearly a sign that women don't want to be in tech/aren't suited to it because anyone can enter tech and pitch a VC if they want', or 'Affirmative action will just mean there are incompetent females getting ahead at the expense of more competent males' (see the complaints about the Etsy scholarships, for instance: usually comes with complete denial of any systemic disadvantages).

I guess in these cases they are being blamed for not seeing the problem and so perpetuating it, rather than for causing it. But at some point it seems reasonable to say that ignoring or denying the existence of something so well-studied is wilful rejection that makes you part of the problem. How about the phrasing 'tech industry, you are perpetuating sexism/racism even if you don't intend to and you should be ashamed of yourselves'?

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#153

Post by 21echoes »

newnewnew wrote: post #113
freefrancisco wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just because white men predominate in a field that automatically makes the field less meritocratic? If you live in a society where white men have more access to the tools that will allow them to forge their merit, when those white males encounter a meritocracy they will naturally rise to the top. You can argue that the society where these men come from is not meritocratic, but you can not argue that the field they…

Notice that if any other group is proportionately overrepresented in a population, it can still be "meritocratic". It is only if there are too many white men, and only white men, that a group can no longer be considered meritocratic. Meanwhile, people tend to forget that half of successful startup founders are immigrants, including large portions from China and India. Most tech companies I've seen are not very white.…

> Notice that if any other group is proportionately overrepresented in a population, it can still be "meritocratic".

false. a meritocratic system will very closely match the demographics of the population at large, because no given demographic is inherently better at a given task[1].

> It is only if there are too many white men, and only white men, that a group can no longer be considered meritocratic.

it's no coincidence that most un-meritocratic systems are overrun with white men-- white men are, historically, a priviledged group. so, of course, if a system values privilege over merit, one will see more white men. is that really that hard to understand?

[1] there are, of course, some small differences in average ability among different populations, but in most every case this is not the overriding factor leading to population imbalances in a given field.

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#154

Post by michaelfdeberry »

ars_technician wrote: post #73
mrcactu5 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She might be referring to the 36M African-Americans & 50M Hispanich-Americans in this country. So American still has a White majority at around 60% of the population. In the year 2010, only 36 million African-Americans in the US, is that right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Stat... Anyway, these groups are under-represented in the Technology field. I heard one response that maybe these group…

>I heard one response that maybe these groups "don't value education" - I don't know how to respond to that one actually. I'm not sure about Hispanics, but this is definitely a problem in many African-American communities. It's considered 'white' or essentially bending over for the system if you go to school and actually try.

Coming from a poor black community I have heard that many times, but only from people that would never be able to obtain higher education for some reason outside of their control. I think it is more so an excuse, or a way to feel better about their own situation.

However, often times when someone has a valid opportunity it's usually encouraged

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#155

Post by subsystem »

arethuza wrote: post #5
mathattack wrote: post #3

I think it's fair to start with, "No industries or geographies are pure meritocracies." Then it's worth asking, "Where does Silicon Valley fit in the spectrum?" Is it more or less meritocratic than teaching? Being an actuary? A politician? A banker? A lawyer? Advertising? Writing? I don't know all of the answers, but my impression is the market forces on startups (Can you get funding? Can you get customers?) at least…

It's worth noting that the term "meritocracy" was defined to be something quite different, and rather more interesting, than it's current usage: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment

Somewhat similar to the "American Dream".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Truslow_Adams#American_Dr...

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#156

Post by newnewnew »

21echoes wrote: post #153
newnewnew wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice that if any other group is proportionately overrepresented in a population, it can still be "meritocratic". It is only if there are too many white men, and only white men, that a group can no longer be considered meritocratic. Meanwhile, people tend to forget that half of successful startup founders are immigrants, including large portions from China and India. Most tech companies I've seen are not very white.…

> Notice that if any other group is proportionately overrepresented in a population, it can still be "meritocratic". false. a meritocratic system will very closely match the demographics of the population at large, because no given demographic is inherently better at a given task[1]. > It is only if there are too many white men, and only white men, that a group can no longer be considered meritocratic. it's no coinci…

You realize that it is trivially easy to falsify your worldview by glancing at, say, Asian American SAT statistics? Measured ability varies widely across population groups, and not always in white guys' favor. Otherwise, every profession from the NBA to electrical engineering would be perfectly balanced like a college recruiter's pamphlet.

Your statement is just a statement of faith, contradicting all available evidence.

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#157

Post by williamcotton »

newnewnew wrote: post #156
21echoes wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notice that if any other group is proportionately overrepresented in a population, it can still be "meritocratic". false. a meritocratic system will very closely match the demographics of the population at large, because no given demographic is inherently better at a given task[1]. > It is only if there are too many white men, and only white men, that a group can no longer be considered meritocratic. it's no coinci…

You realize that it is trivially easy to falsify your worldview by glancing at, say, Asian American SAT statistics? Measured ability varies widely across population groups, and not always in white guys' favor. Otherwise, every profession from the NBA to electrical engineering would be perfectly balanced like a college recruiter's pamphlet. Your statement is just a statement of faith, contradicting all available evide…

The burden of proof doesn't rest on the person arguing against your borderline phrenological explanations of intelligence.

And yes, faith in humanity IS needed for an enlightened thinker.

The meaning and purpose of life will never be proven. There is plenty of room for faith in our world of rationalism.

You need more art in your life! The world is more than just a bunch of metrics in a spreadsheet to fret and argue about.

We should be skeptical of superstitions, but not skeptical of love, truth, and beauty! Don't misinterpret the quest of the Enlightenment! To listen to love and to live!

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#158

Post by ahomescu1 »

acgourley wrote: post #42
MAGZine wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd tend to believe that if you have a badass business deal that is truly worth 1B, you have know-how to get it off the ground, and have exceptional presentation skills (its all about the sell, at this point) a VC wouldn't say no because a person is black, female, gay, or all 3. VCs are their to make money, and they see white male harvard dropouts with no social life to be a safe bet. Convince them that you have a pl…

If you're a SV demographic outsider (say: black, gay, female) it's still going to be an order of magnitude harder to raise institutional money. You're not going to socialize in the same circles and thus your referral network will be tiny. If you get a meeting, you're going to need to spend the first 15 minute somehow counteracting the generalizations piling against you. That said, starting with the same skills and mo…

> You're not going to socialize in the same circles and thus your referral network will be tiny.

I don't think white nerdy males from top schools (like MIT) socialize much in rich VC circles either.

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#159

Post by vellum »

freefrancisco wrote: post #81
pg wrote: post #50

The same arguments would prove that math isn't a meritocracy. Which it presumably isn't, entirely, but only because nothing is entirely. And if SV is only as much of a meritocracy as math, that's pretty good. Indeed, that's what the word means in ordinary usage.

That's an interesting question, is there an institution or subculture in the world that is more meritocratic than Silicon Valley? If there is, then the author's argument has some merit. If there isn't, then the author is wasting time attacking the one institution that comes the closest to embodying the meritocracy ideal. To what end?

That's an interesting question, is there an institution or subculture in the world that is more meritocratic than Silicon Valley?

Jobs where the individual’s numbers are everything, like sales and trading.

If there isn't, then the author is wasting time attacking the one institution that comes the closest to embodying the meritocracy ideal.

The author makes the mistake of looking at Silicon Valley as a monolithic institution. There are many different aspects to life as a dev.

Having said that, coding ability isn’t >*. Things like culture fit and the ability to work with other people also factor in, unless you go the solo dev route. Also, there are still a lot of idiots getting promoted, like the people that end up populating the tales of The Daily WTF.

Re: Silicon Valley Isn’t a Meritocracy

#160

Post by walshemj »

lmkg wrote: post #47
walshemj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean those with rich sugar daddy's funding them as a vanity project as most top tier football (soccer) clubs are or do you mean the socialist closed shop NFL where they only penalty for failure is the pick of next years best players.

He means the players, not the teams. Player compensation is tied more closely to performance than most other sectors, although not perfectly.

err so do the losing nfl and afl teams cut their players salarys?
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