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I Hope My Father Dies Soon

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Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#151

Post by bowlofpetunias »

ketralnis wrote: post #141
stickhandle wrote: post #42

Please HN don't disappoint me with "slippery slope" and "it's too complicated" arguments. I want to continue to believe the level of discourse here is better than that. Its not just do-able ... doctor-assisted suicide is right.

You don't want a website of thousands of diverse people to "disappoint" you by disagreeing with you on a complex issue?

Maybe he likes them to use arguments instead of the nasty insinuations commonly used by those opposed to assisted suicide for deeply ideological reasons.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#152

Post by throwaway62832 »

GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #41
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #26

Since this concerns the U.S. government, I'll say that the vendetta against euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide by the Christian right is puzzling. The Bible has a very ambivalent view on suicide (as with any other topic), the tale of Samson being a prime example. The main argument against suicide comes from Corinthians, but it is starkly contradicted by other passages. A person who is slowly succumbing, immobile,…

The bible doesn't condemn suicide(or abortion) anywhere in it directly. However, as with any good moral book, it is ambiguous. You can use it advocate any position you chose. > Yet the Christian right insists that the agony be prolonged to a maximum. Christianity didn't always hold this view. I suppose some of the movement comes from the commandment "Thou shall not kill". Of course that is a very poor translation. A…

  > Christianity didn't always hold this view.
For the American Christian right, the transition began with Nixon's desire to win the Catholic vote away from the Democrats in his 1972 campaign[1]. (Even in 1979 Billy Graham's magazine Christianity Today included the argument that "God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed."[2])

  [1] http://books.google.ca/books?id=zYZQBc9426QC&pg=PA14
  [2] bit.ly/zITvj3

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#153

Post by burntsushi »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #147
burntsushi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there wasn't a law against doctor assisted suicide, he'd be able to let his father die as he chooses. The only entity that can make and enforce laws is government. This makes government distinct from all other entities . Therefore, the government deserves the blame.

And yet, I live under a government, one that like the US government has been democratically elected, which does allow assisted suicide. So maybe "government" isn't the problem. The people are. But of course it is way scarier to imagine that it's not the government that is making your father suffer, but your friends, family, neighbors and coworkers. Because that would really be too uncomfortable.

I'm not sure what inconsistency you're trying to point out. Not all governments are equal. Perhaps it wasn't clear from my comment; the US government is to blame.

Moreover, government is not the only perpetrator of evil things. It's certainly by far the biggest (read: wars), but there are plenty of other evil people and organizations out there. Is that supposed to make me uncomfortable? I'm just calling it like I see it.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#154

Post by fragsworth »

badman_ting wrote: post #76

Sorry, but I am getting really tired of this form of discourse. A million interests prevent you from doing a million things every day, but apparently it's only objectionable and worth remarking about when it's the government. And it's not even like I disagree with him -- yes we should allow assisted suicide. But boy oh boy is it hard not to notice that he wastes no time thinking about why things are this way, or whic…

If he points out specifically the groups who are against doctor-assisted suicide, then he'll alienate them - members of a group will easily revert to the way their groups think if you remind them about the connection between the issue and their group.

Instead he is talking about the issue alone, and I believe all he's really trying to convince everyone that doctor-assisted suicide is an O.K. thing. He's going about it the right way. His anger is justified and he's appealing to the right emotions.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#155

Post by Samuel_Michon »

lake99 wrote: post #134
loup-vaillant wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you envisioned in detail what a government that "isn't our nanny" would look like? Have you visualized the consequences of a transition to such a government? Personally, while I agree governments screw a lot of things up, I have to recognize they have many advantages. Private property for instance often needs a strong government to be properly enforced.

While the idea of "strong government" has many vague interpretations, one doesn't need a nanny state to enforce property rights. This is a good starting point for looking at what Benelux countries do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia

As a citizen of the Netherlands I can tell you that the country is as neo-liberal[1] as they come, and yet, we have universal healthcare, gay marriage, euthanasia, and abortion.

(Also, racism is rampant, culture and education spending continue to be cut, the housing market has been in a slump since 2009, and taxes are on the rise – but I digress.)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-liberal

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#156

Post by burntsushi »

gfodor wrote: post #150
burntsushi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there wasn't a law against doctor assisted suicide, he'd be able to let his father die as he chooses. The only entity that can make and enforce laws is government. This makes government distinct from all other entities . Therefore, the government deserves the blame.

This is incredibly shallow thinking. The government in the U.S. is an elected body. Elections have consequences. This is one of them. You can blame the individual politicians and want to see them die a painful death since it might be emotionally satisfying for you, but the reason the politicians are there in the first place and the reason they pull the lever the way they do has a little to do with their own personal…

Elections vote on who to put in an office. They don't (typically) vote on which laws to pass and enforce. Only the person in office does.

More to the point, elections are a function of government. Who makes the laws that govern elections? Who enforces them? Government.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#157

Post by SilasX »

znowi wrote: post #11

I get the story and am sympathetic to the OP, but a little confused about this line: And while I'm at it, I might want you to die a painful death too. Is he just angry at everyone?

I'm pretty sure his point there was the people he's criticizing want to deny the right to a painless death, so it's only fitting that they be denied that right as well. Not that they die painfully now, but that when they die, that it be painful.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#158

Post by dxm »

lmg643 wrote: post #148

i am wondering if i am the only person who read this, who felt the piece was a very strange way to consecrate his father's passing. "i wish i could have put him down like a cat, and if you disagree with me, i hope you die a horrible death." there is a good case for euthanasia, and there is a case against it, it just seems inappropriate to approach a dialogue with this piece as a starting point. in the end, i'm sorry…

I lost my grandfather (father really, he raised me) and I felt the same way, I signed his DNR and if nobody was looking, I would have turned off all measures to keep him stable myself. Watching somebody you love pass is entirely heartbreaking, it's satisfying to see them cross the line into the unthinking. If I had the talent of Scott Adams, the words I would have emitted would have been similar.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#159

Post by gohrt »

olefoo wrote: post #129
loup-vaillant wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this quote only apply to human tyrants. As a Christian apologist, I'm sure C.S. Lewis didn't object to the benevolent tyranny of God. (I would, but I too have my own exception: Friendly AI).

And where does your "friendly-AI" draw it's moral template from? I mean, I'm OK with an AI that works tirelessly in the background keeping the air clean and the habitat habitable. However I don't want a computer, no matter how smart; telling me what I and consenting partners choose to do. Or deciding whether or not we must or can use birth control. Or any of a thousand other forms of infringing on human agency.

> I'm OK with an AI that works tirelessly in the background keeping the air clean and the habitat habitable

Are you sure?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1-DQ2Wo_w

"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure."

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#160

Post by x0x0 »

lmg643 wrote: post #148

i am wondering if i am the only person who read this, who felt the piece was a very strange way to consecrate his father's passing. "i wish i could have put him down like a cat, and if you disagree with me, i hope you die a horrible death." there is a good case for euthanasia, and there is a case against it, it just seems inappropriate to approach a dialogue with this piece as a starting point. in the end, i'm sorry…

look, when your opponents are the sick pieces of human shit who exploited Terri Schiavo, there is no common ground to be had. Republicans like people to die as painfully as humanly possible, and the medical industry will cooperate. My experience was my father dying from cancer. There was no question he was going to die, and the only remaining questions where how soon -- tomorrow or in a month or two -- and how painfully.
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