I love how whenever a major world leader comes out against the war on drugs, it is always after they are out of office and generally retired from political life.
It's the modern day equivalent of a deathbed conversion!
Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
151–160 of 190 posts
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
Man the "money" argument for the drug war is so stupid. Private prisons are a small minority of prisons even today, and were very uncommon in the 1980s and 1990s when the drug war really heated up. Blaming monied interests is a cop out here. They are just the opportunists. Its "just say no!" moms and dads, teachers and school officials, that keep the drug war alive.
It's more than just prison owners. What would happen to the DEA? Hell, huge numbers of local police would be unnecessary without the drug war.
Maybe they could keep us safe instead?
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#153I love how whenever a major world leader comes out against the war on drugs, it is always after they are out of office and generally retired from political life.
In a far off yet inevitable future of bounty and abundance... physical and emotional pain have been edited out of our genetic code, replaced by neurochemically enhanced empathy & bliss & a lavish minimum income frees our leaders to put social good ahead of job security. Until then, we're still living primitively... in the jungle as a savage, infant race.
Emotional pain is critical for empathy. Unless you believe in the purely rational theory of human behavior, people have to feel what will be emotionally painful for others before acting in a way that minimizes emotional pain.
Physical pain is also important. It keeps you from doing stupid things that end up with you getting hurt.
Both mental and physical pain can be modulated/reduced somewhat through psychological training (one form of which would be meditation). I think making pain reduction any easier could cause more problems than it solves.
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#154Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd like to read more about this. Do you have a source for this?
More sectarian than a pure race thing it was Nativist Protestant's vs recently immigrant Catholics. the KKK started out as an Anti catholic group
The Irish & Southern Europeans were looked upon as lesser races at the time. It was only later that "white vs black" became the socially accepted racial classification.
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#156Here's an analogy some may find crazy: I've been collecting data that classifies sugar (cane / corn / etc.) as a drug, rather than a food. Considering that type 2 diabetes is a self induced illness caused by sugar abuse, should we imprison sugar addicts? I know, I know, that may be a bit of a stretch for some persons. Still, think about it.
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#157The real issue that needs to be discussed, but no one wants to, is how one particular three letter uses drugs as a source of black ops funding, so that it is beyond congressional oversight. Of course, congress is so compromised they are much less afraid of oversight these days, but until people understand that the drug war is about money more than just in regards to asset forfeiture and other LEA uses, and the very top structures in government benefit from it.
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#158I believe the results of decriminalization may vary according to your social context. I live in Brazil and I don't think decriminalization would reduce violence around here, it would, at its best, move the focus away from the drug addict to other parts of the society. Collaborators from large drug organizations (tens of thousands of criminals, running millionaire operations, heavily armed) won't simply boo-hoo, go ho…
I'm unfamiliar with Brazil drug operations. But certainly these other crimes have significantly less profit/risk than the huge markup on illegal drugs? If they are properly legalized, the price should plummet. So even stealing or going wholesale is far less lucrative. You can already steal other goods. You could hijack a shipment of beer - but end-users aren't going to pay $15 a bottle for it because the normal price…
Yes, this is very complex and there are a lot of points we could discuss from a factual perspective.
It's very hard to know what's the most profitable LOB of crime organizations here. What is well known is that they operate on a wide "portfolio" of products and services since there are strong dependencies between them. Drugs, weapons, bank robbery, ATM stealing, truck robbery, kidnapping... the list is long.
Drugs is a relevant LOB because it employs a great deal of terror on the human structure of the organization. Debt with a drug dealer is usually seen as a death sentence. So the dealer knows he can manipulate those who cannot pay their debts by forcing them to commit various crimes as compensation. Dealers don't need money to finance crimes, they do it mostly through terror. Drugs are just the foundations.
Black market. If the legal drug is sold for $15, drug dealers would sell the same amount for $10. Like the do with stolen medical drugs sold mostly in slums.
Government/private companies would have a hard time trying to sell legal drugs anywhere near slums. Not only the dealers would exterminate the workers of those places, but would also steal the products to resell them.
I'm pro drug decriminalization. I believe people should be free to experiment anything they want in their lives, of course, being properly accountable for that. But my problem is with people that generalize the success of ANY decriminalization campaign only because Portugal made it right. There are so many variables in this game, so many social and cultural pre-requisites that we cannot treat this subject with just a couple of lines.
I appreciate you time articulating your ideas while commenting my point. I think that's the type of exercise that this subject deserves.
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm unfamiliar with Brazil drug operations. But certainly these other crimes have significantly less profit/risk than the huge markup on illegal drugs? If they are properly legalized, the price should plummet. So even stealing or going wholesale is far less lucrative. You can already steal other goods. You could hijack a shipment of beer - but end-users aren't going to pay $15 a bottle for it because the normal price…
Yes, this is very complex and there are a lot of points we could discuss from a factual perspective. It's very hard to know what's the most profitable LOB of crime organizations here. What is well known is that they operate on a wide "portfolio" of products and services since there are strong dependencies between them. Drugs, weapons, bank robbery, ATM stealing, truck robbery, kidnapping... the list is long. Drugs is…
>Debt with a drug dealer ... Dealers don't need money to finance crimes, they do it mostly through terror.
So if the people are working for them to pay off a debt, then the dealer paid for the service still. Additionally, someone has to buy weapons to hijack shipments.
>If the legal drug is sold for $15, drug dealers would sell the same amount for $10
Going along with fictional numbers, currently they're getting, say $100 for the same amount. Legalization might bring it to $15, and black market guys might sell at $10. That's still 1/10th of the revenue flowing in. They'd have to have very thin profit margins to benefit from a major reduction in prices.
>Like the do with stolen medical drugs sold mostly in slums. ... . Not only the dealers would exterminate the workers of those places
Sounds like this is a problem with slums and Brazil's law enforcement capabilities in general than anything else.
If your point is that Brazil will still have massive problems after legalization, yes, sure. Legalizing all medications won't solve hunger, either. Legal sales reduce criminal pressure on end-users (maybe not an issue in Brazil) and reduce revenues to criminals.
Why would a policy of open drug sales make things worse in Brazil?
Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, this is very complex and there are a lot of points we could discuss from a factual perspective. It's very hard to know what's the most profitable LOB of crime organizations here. What is well known is that they operate on a wide "portfolio" of products and services since there are strong dependencies between them. Drugs, weapons, bank robbery, ATM stealing, truck robbery, kidnapping... the list is long. Drugs is…
>Debt with a drug dealer ... Dealers don't need money to finance crimes, they do it mostly through terror. So if the people are working for them to pay off a debt, then the dealer paid for the service still. Additionally, someone has to buy weapons to hijack shipments. >If the legal drug is sold for $15, drug dealers would sell the same amount for $10 Going along with fictional numbers, currently they're getting, say…
> ...someone has to buy weapons to hijack shipments
Yes, "soldiers" pay off debts by robbing banks and handing over money to dealers, whom in turn buy weapons on the cheap in Paraguay (country) or from corrupt police forces (aka milícias[3]).
> Sounds like this is a problem with slums and Brazil's law enforcement capabilities in general than anything else.
That's my point.
> Legal sales reduce criminal pressure on end-users
Absolutely, for the middle class alone. Can't say it for the poor.
> Reduce revenues to criminals
Not for the big organizations like PCC [1] or Comando vermelho [2]
> Why would a policy of open drug sales make things worse in Brazil?
I don't know if it would make it worse. But I'm almost sure it wouldn't make it better to most of the population (basis of my point) simply because violence wouldn't be reduced. Organized crime finds its ways to keep its dominance, and it has been like that for decades.
Thanks for the "debate". :)
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeiro_Comando_da_Capital [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comando_Vermelho [3] http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil%C3%ADcia_(Rio_de_Janeiro) (use a translator, sorry)