Only a few countries are teaching children how to think • Hacker News Board

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#151

Post by comrade_ogilvy » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 8:14 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #14

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #2

Growing up, I declined to participate in the educational system (primarily to avoid harassment at school) and instead spent all of my time learning to program video games at home. So I would sleep through class, go home, and try to write Pong. My academic performance was nonexistent, but I came out of it with a career. I was wondering, was anyone else's childhood experience similar? Highschool felt at best a dungeon,…

> I didn't really know how the world worked, and it seemed to me like the system had been designed for the purpose of dragging me down to the level of the brutes around me. A huge amount of education "policy" in the US is driven by the goal of closing the "achievement gap" between blacks and whites (for educational purposes, Asians are honorary whites). Since when you improve instruction, high performers tend to bene…

"Enforcing a low ceiling" is a very bias conclusion, with no logical support provided here.

The school system as we know it is a mass education "factory" system. There is and always will be cracks for students to fall through. Furthermore, it is not clear that the system ever served top students very well -- I emphasize issues around the "ceiling" is not actually new.

How to deal with those cracks in the system is a complex topic. But that hardly matters for purposes of this discussion because...

The school system is under intense pressure to produce results in the form of standardized test scores. What are they supposed to do? They focus on inching up the scores of those below the median, of course.

That has exactly nothing to do with "enforcing a low ceiling". The school system simply no longer cares about the brightest students, while the taxpaying voters are clamoring for those average test scores to climb. Individual teachers would love to care, but they are generally not allowed to until those scores go up first.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#152

Post by comrade_ogilvy » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 8:33 PM UTC

smtddr wrote: post #114

Jd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why Americans should be able to discuss education policy in Polish. Seems a non sequitur. I don't think the author of the book claimed to be able to do such anyways. As for technological over-reliance, I take that as given. I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad. To me this is one of the strengths of the US system.…

> I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad. I think it's bad too, and here's why: The teachers & staff in charge of the less-performers will do less to help them. Won't push them as hard. Generally just not care(as much). I think it's better for the under-performers to see the strong-performers and understand those kids are not…

>> I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad.

>I think it's bad too, and here's why: The teachers & staff in charge of the less-performers will do less to help them. Won't push them as hard. Generally just not care(as much). I think it's better for the under-performers to see the strong-performers and understand those kids are not magically-smarter, they just work hard and it's completely possible for the under-performers to be like them if they try to mimic their study habits.

The error is labeling children to put them into tidy categories. Whether the 9-year-old is two years behind in math or two years ahead in math is still taking the mindset that the children are like farm animals we should measure with "calipers" and compare to others in same age segregated litter.

What is important is that their existing skills are correctly assessed, and then the appropriate lessons provided to move forward. The only reason people are graduating from HS without solid skill in arithmetic is they are being pushed forward on a relentless educational conveyor belt. The basics should have been mastered when they were 9 or 10 or 11.

>"We need to get class-A performance up to get more funding or raise our GPA average so our Class-A looks better to those affluent parents to send their kids to! Hmm, billy & mandy aren't too bright and are lowering the average. We could help them to be better, or we could just move them to the Class-C group; thus eliminating their scores from Class-A's GPA average."

In the real world, the opposite is more likely to be true. Why a student is a high achiever is, from the school's point of view, largely a mystery -- 99% likely it has everything to do with the parents and very little to do with the school itself. The school is capable of shoving many, many students through a standard curriculum. That suggests shooting for near the median and ignoring both the low and high outliers.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#153

Post by Perseids » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 9:07 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #78

polskibus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand I'd agree with you, on the other Poles whine a lot and need a lot of appreciation from others to believe in themselves. I have worked with many people educated in other countries in similar age as mine. We compared our educational experience - many admitted that in terms of scope, PL education seemed much better - more in-depth courses, more interesting problems solved during studies, etc. I'd say that yo…

I can't compare recent advances in educational systems, but I do have pretty good knowledge of at least what used to happen in high schools in the US and of schools and a technical university in France. The conclusions I'd draw (and mind you, this is knowledge from ~15-20 years ago, and it is my knowledge and my opinions): * Polish high school students indeed know more and are better at problem solving than most US h…

> Polish high school students indeed know more and are better at problem solving than most US high school students, * that said, there are high schools (public!) in the US that offer university-level courses and are excellent, * and university-level education seems to be much better in the US

I'm curious how you compare students in different educational systems. Like what is "high school" and "university" in Poland. I ask, because every time I read something about the American education system I have quite some trouble assessing the statements because of the foreign categorizations.

For example "school" in Germany comprises the first 12 or 13 years of education, with the first change of school happening after 4 or 6 years in primary school (with school starting at the age of 6). The following 13th till 18th year of education is held at a "university" where you earn a Bachelor and a Master degree. A PHD would be 3 to 5 further years in university.

I've pieced together that the American Bachelor seems to be more broad than the German one. My Bachelor degree was in Mathematics and it did not contain some mandatory stuff in humanities for example. Yet it seems we learned that stuff in the first 12 (/13) years already and thus the German Bachelor starts later than the American one? But that would also mean that German students would spend more time overall in education (the current average (of people with higher education) might be about 18 years) and I also find that implausible.

Basically I'm asking: Does someone know of a good comparative introduction to the American education system?

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#154

Post by azth » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

kevincrane wrote: post #7

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #2

Growing up, I declined to participate in the educational system (primarily to avoid harassment at school) and instead spent all of my time learning to program video games at home. So I would sleep through class, go home, and try to write Pong. My academic performance was nonexistent, but I came out of it with a career. I was wondering, was anyone else's childhood experience similar? Highschool felt at best a dungeon,…

I feel like I'm in the minority here (backed up by a similar discussion on reddit today), but I really enjoyed high school. I liked the classes, I felt like I knew what I was doing with life when I graduated and went on to college, and then there's the whole social thing that people seem hit/miss on. I made a ton of lifelong friends in high school, played on sports teams all 4 years, and evolved from a shy little kid…

Do you have the link to the reddit thread? :)

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#155

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 10:40 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #103

hanula wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement. On the other side I value my education I had in Poland only because it was hard sometimes and I was looking into how to hack the system and outsmart teachers' questions/assignments (math especially). Education system I had ten years ago was focused on memorization, "soft" subjects and skills (languages, first language) while math and physics weren't valu…

>I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement. You might find it interesting to read and comment on the actual article then. It dates the beginning of the recent reform of Poland's education system to 1997, just one year before you graduated, so it may be that a lot has changed since your time.

[deleted]

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#156

Post by Surio » Sat, Oct 19, 2013, 3:35 AM UTC

> The argument about knowing how and when to apply formulas misses the fact that practice in applying those formulas is essential to competence.

>

I am coming late to this topic, and I wanted to make exactly this point that @kaitai made in a thread, in one of the many threads about memorisation vs. critical understanding.... This is the (moot) point that people seem to be missing here, which is surprising, because most of us here do seem to think highly about "code katas" or the "10,000 hour rule" or "immersion into code/algorithms" which is all about the above.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#157

Post by Surio » Sat, Oct 19, 2013, 3:54 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #139

peteretep wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have also memorised the formulas for d/s/t and f/a/p but struggle to see how these translate in to academic excellence of any type, or even why giving them to someone is encouraging mediocrity. There is (imho) nothing of value in memorizing simple formulas, and everything in the value of knowing how and when to apply those formulas, or where to Google for them.

This is a slight tangent because it is about mechanical computational skills rather than formulas, but the idea is the same. I am currently teaching a bunch of very bright graduate students from a number of countries. On the most recent midterm, students from countries that force people to learn to compute and learn some formulas finished in an hour, while US students and some others took two. US students in particul…

Thanks, I too wanted to point this one exactly.

Instead of threading my point, I have quoted you and hived it off as a separate reply.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#158

Post by jacques_chester » Sun, Oct 20, 2013, 5:57 AM UTC

foobarqux wrote: post #125

jacques_chester wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The presumption that students have memorised the formulae allows you to build more complex tests with confidence that they will tease out understanding and not just computation. In my highschool physics exam, about 2/3rds was of questions based on memorised formulae. For example, the bouncing ball problem, with a series of questions to tease out our application of calculus, memorisation of compression rules and so on…

> To solve this problem you actually need to consider the thermic effect of water falling. I suspect you got this question wrong.

Suspect away.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#159

Post by catwell » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 10:42 AM UTC

jwr wrote: post #78

polskibus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand I'd agree with you, on the other Poles whine a lot and need a lot of appreciation from others to believe in themselves. I have worked with many people educated in other countries in similar age as mine. We compared our educational experience - many admitted that in terms of scope, PL education seemed much better - more in-depth courses, more interesting problems solved during studies, etc. I'd say that yo…

I can't compare recent advances in educational systems, but I do have pretty good knowledge of at least what used to happen in high schools in the US and of schools and a technical university in France. The conclusions I'd draw (and mind you, this is knowledge from ~15-20 years ago, and it is my knowledge and my opinions): * Polish high school students indeed know more and are better at problem solving than most US h…

I am French, and I have studied at an Engineering School in France (probably what you call "technical university") and at a British university.

I agree that our higher education is doing something right. The problem is what comes before that. In France, to have an engineering degree (equivalent of a MSc) from a top school, you go through:

- High school, where the quality of education and the technical level is very low IMO.

- CPGE. This is a French specificity, two years dedicated to preparing competitive exams. Basically, you only study maths and physics in the abstract there. This is the reason why our math level is so high compared to other countries. But the math we study is not the most useful: lots, lots of analysis, a decent amount of algebra, almost no statistics and nothing discovered since the end of the XIXth century (exit Turing, exit Gödel...).

- Only after that do you study at a "Grande École" for three years... But you have to catch up things like project management and so on so real technical education is limited.

In the end, we produce generalists that are often good at everything but very good at nothing. Those of use who want to understand a domain in depth often go study abroad.

This is what I did, I went to the UK to study distributed computing. I had students from all over the world in my class and I was impressed by those from Poland. I don't know how you do it, they may not have not know the most on arrival but they were certainly learning the fastest (along with student from Czech Republic).

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#160

Post by akulbe » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 1:42 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #36

einhverfr wrote: post #4

Over here in Indonesia, most of the more prestigious schools follow the Singapore model. Kids do end up studying a lot, but on the whole it doesn't seem more than I did as a kid (in rural America). They tend to be pretty well-rounded, teach three languages (English, Bahasa, and Mandarin), and follow roughly the math courses I remember as a child though perhaps a year advanced by 4th grade. In the US, schools seem to…

"Education begins and ends at home, and what schools offer is largely a supplement for the home." I think it is the opposite. I pay the school to teach my kid. I don't expect to have them come home and require me to finish the job. Can you imagine if you went to a restaurant and they said, we prepared the food, but you must cook it. I work every day with my child on her homework, but it is not to teach her what she l…

What if their values don't coincide with yours? What if they're teaching your kid evolution and you're a creationist? (or vice versa)

What if they're teaching your kid something that is just flat out inaccurate? How do you know?

My point is that perhaps you're placing complete faith in someone else, with little/no accountability from you or your spouse to make sure that the education your children are getting is both quality and accurate.

In my opinion, even though you have delegated the role of education to the school system... final responsibility for the outcome still rests with us (the parents).