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How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

atroche.org

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Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#151
post #31
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the rationalization people have to use to explain China's economic success. If what Deng brought was capitalism, then Obama is an anarcho-libertarian.

What was behind China's economic success then? (not snark, genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts) As far as I know Deng did advocate a more open and free policy when it came to the markets, not in very concrete terms but certainly in veiled terms like "pragmatism" and "we must do whatever works" [1]. I'm not saying Deng made China a Randian libertarian's wet-dream but it seems he did push for free markets a l…

"Capitalism" means private ownership of capital. 30% of industrial and service sector assets in China are stated-owned: http://blogs.worldbank.org/eastasiapacific/state-owned-enter.... About 45% of the industrial sector is state-owned, down from 70% in 1999 (still more than two decades after Deng left office, and more than a decade after China's economic boom began). The profit share of the state owned enterprises is even higher: 43% of industrial and business profits in China yield from state owned enterprises: http://thediplomat.com/2013/06/19/reforming-chinas-state-own....

In a purely definitional sense, China is at best a hybrid economy now, and was a primarily communist economy long after its economy started booming.

Even to the extent that China's economy is ostensibly privately owned, the government still exercises tremendous control. For example while the banks are joint stock companies, and thus reflect substantial private ownership of equity, the Chinese government still owns the majority of the shares in many of them giving them tremendous power over those banks.

I don't think China can be fairly called a "capitalist" economy. It's a managed economy where the managers have allowed the free market to allocate resources at the lower levels, while the central government directs broader, longer-term economic objectives.

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#152
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this what "deprogramming" a brainwashed person is? Moving them from the position of their captors' propaganda to a position within the propaganda believed by an entire society? Patriotism being one example of this type of propaganda -- the idea that some of us are better than others because we were born on one side of a line in the dirt.

This is why I find the concept of brainwashing/deprogramming fascinating from an epistemic perspective; you're essentially substituting one set of axioms for another. And it's often hard to determine who occupies the epistemic higher ground, since all camps will claim to do so. For example, liberals think Fox News is brainwashing people, and conservatives think academics at liberal schools are brainwashing people. So…

Humans seem to gravitate toward certainty and consistency the way moths fly toward light. It's an emotional craving, and in order to be rational we have to be exceedingly comfortable not knowing things (and realizing we often don't know what we don't know).

The more a person seeks the opiatic, emotional feeling of fake knowing, the more receptive he is to religion, political brainwashing, conspiracy theories, prejudices, social authority structures, etc.

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#153

I wouldn't categorize this as brainwashing. Or to be more specific: I wouldn't categorize the description in the blog post as brainwashing or torture. To me, this looks more like some kind of group therapy since the POWs were not forced and the example statement they were asked to make ("The United States is not perfect.") is obviously a fact because nothing is perfect. What I find interesting is to compare this to w…

Very different from Guantanamo. It's almost like after Vietnam we decided there was only one way to get information out of people.

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#154
post #9

I thought america WAS the aggressor? (Korea isn't really near the US), and it was quite apparent the US wanted satellite states near russia/china, to potentially launch further attacks. Also did the communists do a bad job in china? That is at most controversial... not "brain washed".

Also did the communists do a bad job... Compare West and East Germany. Compare North and South Korea. Compare Mainland China and Taiwan. And once you've done those comparisons ask yourself about what kind of job the communists have done. Many millions dead. Many more millions in poverty. That's the job they've done.

If you want understand what communists did in China it's better look on other numbers. For example, rise of life expectancy was incredible (especially if you look at comparable country like India) http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&c...

Child mortality http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&c...

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#155
post #9

I thought america WAS the aggressor? (Korea isn't really near the US), and it was quite apparent the US wanted satellite states near russia/china, to potentially launch further attacks. Also did the communists do a bad job in china? That is at most controversial... not "brain washed".

> Also did the communists do a bad job in china? That is at most controversial... not "brain washed". Controversial? Good lord, Mao's Great Leap Forward killed between 23 and 42 million people in just a few years.

The Great Leap Forward - 1958 to 1961.

The Korean War - 1950 - 1953.

Until the Great Leap, Mao had done a fantastic job. Life expectancies shot up by about 15 years, as he dismantled feudalism, and established a relatively functional and stable state. Then he undid all the good he'd done, in the 1958, sending life expectancies back to ~35. Then things improved again, when Deng and co managed to contain Mao a little better (though they sometimes had ... issues).

tl;dr - Mao had done a fantastic job, up to 1958, which was well after the Korean War ended.

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#156
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is part of the progression to communism. You have to have generated capital in order to distribute it. Marx saw communism as a progression from capitalism, not a genesis form of government in and of itself. China had the unfortunate luck of being left in ruins when it becoming "Communist". Deng rebooted the whole thing, it remains to be seen whether they will continue communism into the future. To call it…

I live in China, it is the most capatalistic country I have lived in. If there is any socialism left, it is quite hidden to me.

Tell me: how many of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_companies_o...) are privately owned?

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#157
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi Arabia has apparently had considerable success deprogramming militants by engaging them in religious discussions.

Oh? I thought that militants in that region of the planet were programmed by religious discussions in the first place. Maybe we do not share the same definition of what a "militant" is, in Saudi Arabia?

Perhaps if you can program militants using religious discussion, then you can deprogram them using religious discussion. Militants aren't EPROMs, they don't need UV light.

Articles on the Saudi deprogramming effort:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/06/get-out-... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/magazine/09jihadis-t.html?...

And a more recent (PDF) review about why deprogramming mostly doesn't work:

http://sites.duke.edu/ihss/files/2011/12/Morris_Research_Bri...

Although Saudi Arabia's may be more effective. The reason is basically that terrorists aren't actually programmed using religious discussion, terrorists are programmed using monkeybrain ties to other terrorists. ObGwern:

http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror

A clever person might therefore attempt to use stronger monkeybrain ties to deprogram terrorists. Like the PLO did:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/12/all-you-...

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has explained to me why Korea was even divided up into the North and South in the first place. It should have been left to its own devices after the Japanese empire collapsed at the end of WW2. That is, the US/UN shouldn't have been occupying the South and the USSR/China shouldn't have been occupying the North. Seems to me that the fault should be assigned to all of those countries/organizations.

There's no such thing as "its own devices" for a country with no surviving government. All the various countries conquered by the Axis during World War II were occupied by various Allied powers with the intention of reestablishing them as independent countries. Poland and Czechoslovakia, to name two, were occupied solely by the Soviets and was set up as Soviet-controlled puppet states. Japan. to name another, was occ…

> was reformed into a fairly pro-Western democratic country, complete with baseball

Actually, baseball has existed in Japan since the 1870s. It was in no way a post-WW2 phenomenon.

> Korea was a similar case...

I don't see how dividing up a country among the victors makes any sense, either in the case of Germany or that of Korea. What exactly did they expect to occur after a couple decades had passed?

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, it just gets call "indoctrination" as that sounds nicer and it is often (though far from always) more subtle as it is more of a "long game" thing. It is one of those "one person's X is another person's Y" comparisons: indoctrination/brain-washing, religion/cult, freedom-fighter/terrorist, cute cat / insane evil sharp edged ball of allergens, ...

No, the nicer sounding word is "explanation".

I don't agree there. Explanation would be more "I do/think/believe X because" where indoctrination is more "you should do/think/believe X because".

A more passive form of indoctrination would be repeated explanation (with or without query/prompt) so explanation can become indoctrination depending on context, but I'll stand by my choice of words above.

Re: How China brainwashed American POWs using a classic sales technique

#160
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also did the communists do a bad job in china? That is at most controversial... not "brain washed". Controversial? Good lord, Mao's Great Leap Forward killed between 23 and 42 million people in just a few years.

The Great Leap Forward - 1958 to 1961. The Korean War - 1950 - 1953. Until the Great Leap, Mao had done a fantastic job. Life expectancies shot up by about 15 years, as he dismantled feudalism, and established a relatively functional and stable state. Then he undid all the good he'd done, in the 1958, sending life expectancies back to ~35. Then things improved again, when Deng and co managed to contain Mao a little b…

You're right. I completely confused the Korean war dates. Egg. Face.
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