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I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

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Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#151

There should be a way for companies to invest in promising interns, paying some of their tuition costs in exchange for a certain number of years employment with the company afterwards. While this wouldn't work for many fields, it would certainly help in cases like this (and tech in general). It would seem that with as much as companies pay for head-hunters and recruiters (and how much they whine about the lack of qua…

The freedom to quit is vital to maintaining a non-exploitative workplace.

Reminds me of how H1Bs work. Quit -> must go back to home country. Can be quite a motivation if the home country is a lousy place.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#152
post #73

There should be a way for companies to invest in promising interns, paying some of their tuition costs in exchange for a certain number of years employment with the company afterwards. While this wouldn't work for many fields, it would certainly help in cases like this (and tech in general). It would seem that with as much as companies pay for head-hunters and recruiters (and how much they whine about the lack of qua…

You are describing indentured servitude, which is illegal because it is a form of slavery.

I'm not quite seeing that. Kobe signs a contract agreeing to play for the Lakers. Musicians sign deals to work for record companies, often for "advance" money up front and no guarantee of future payments.

Its just a contract. Mutually agreed upon. I'm sure it can be structured so that the student/employee can exit the contract with a reasonable repayment plan.

Are current student loans, non-dischargeable through bankruptcy really that much better?

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#153
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very much not my impression that most people can deduct health expenses. Here from the horse's mouth ( http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/2013-changes-to-itemized-dedu... ): " Beginning Jan. 1, 2013, you can claim deductions for medical expenses not covered by your health insurance that exceed 10 percent of your adjusted gross income. " Previously it was 7.5%, but it's nothing if you can't file a Schedule A to itemi…

I may be reading this wrong, but from what I understand anyone can file a Schedule A (which allows you to itemize your deductions), but in doing so you give up the standard deductions for your tax bracket, which for a single filer is 5350. So at 7.5% of her adjusted gross of ~25k which is $1875. So if her medical expenses are less than 5350 it would most likely make the most sense for her to take the standard deducti…

Ah, "can" was too strong, "saves money over taking the standard deduction" is what I meant.

I noticed something about a 2% haircut when skimming Wikipedia's entry on this, don't know if it would apply. Properly filling out a Schedule A would also cost, either in paying a preparer or opportunity cost in learning how to do it.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#154
post #118
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Declare yourself independent, move out, get a part-time job, remove yourself as a dependent from your parents taxes, etc. etc. Now you are the income source for your own education expenses, and if you don't make that much money should be eligible for all kinds of wonderful tuition assistance programs. If the school asks, just say you have a terrible relationship with your parents and are estranged from them.

I brought that sort of scenario up, was told it wasn't an option, although the lower level staffer I talked to wished it was. Perhaps my school took a particularly hard line, I certainly had a few peers who boasted of scams they and their family were running, e.g. borrowing at subsidized rates and getting >20% returns that Carter era inflation allowed them to earn (the government was slow to acknowledge the inflation…

Dunno then. It's exactly what I did. I had to show lots of paperwork, bills in my name, apartment rent payment and cashed rent checks, bank account info etc. But once over that hurdle I was in like Flynn (except I didn't have wealthy parents in the first place).

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#155
Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself.

If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineering the learning materials are much, much better written.

To do self-study in academic engineering, it is crucial to get some of the best materials, usually, still, textbooks. For this, investigate and pick carefully. Indeed, you should have little trouble finding what the favorite textbooks are for what you want to learn -- likely can get enough just by going to the Web sites of the most relevant universities, departments, courses, and professors. For the engineering schools, don't be reluctant to go right to the top -- MIT, Cornell, CMU, Georgia Tech, Stanford.

If you need more, then maybe send a nice e-mail to some professors, in a few words explain your situation, maybe include a list of the candidate books you have found, and ask for suggestions, say, the textbooks he's been using, on the list or off.

Point 2. If you want an 'expensive' Bachelor's degree, say, for $50,000 a year at an Ivy League university, instead shoot for a Masters or better yet a Ph.D. from such a school. Why? In important ways, the graduate degree is faster, easier, and cheaper than the Bachelor's. In my experience, at the best schools, Ph.D. students rarely pay tuition anyway. And from the famous Ivy League schools, it's generally easier to get accepted for a Ph.D. than for a Bachelors.

Point 3: If you want a Bachelor's degree or need one (say, to get accepted for a Master's or Ph.D.), then one option is just go to about the cheapest school you can, maybe starting with just a two year community college and then transferring to a four year college to finish your Bachelor's. "Don't pay a lot for this muffler" -- uh, Bachelor's degree. Everyone in higher education understands that there are good students with little money or family background in academics and respect such students. If you learned well, then as you finish your Bachelor's you can get some high GRE scores which will look great applying to a Ph.D. program and make up for starting at a community college.

Point 4. Even following Point 3, to save money and get better results, still emphasize self-study. That is, before taking the course, study the course on your own first. Then take the course, lead the class, ace the course, amaze the professor, and get glowing recommendations, say, to a good four year college for your last two years, or from a four year college to a Ph.D. program, as the best student he ever had, maybe get a scholarship. Besides, this way might get to take extra courses at once, save tuition money, time on campus, and expenses commuting to campus and look still smarter, all because you just studied the material before you took the course.

Of course, this self-study stuff can work great for the more theoretical and mathematical parts of engineering but work less well where you might need time in an expensive lab. So, emphasize the theoretical and mathematical parts and for the rest do what you can without a lab. Then in school, when you take the lab course, you still have a head start.

E.g., on self-study, I got a Ph.D. in essentially applied math, but I never really took freshman calculus. Instead, in my freshman year the poor school I was at insisted I take some 'college algebra' which was beneath what I'd covered in four years of math at a relatively good public high school. So, not to fall behind, I got a decent calculus book and dug in. For my sophomore year, I went to a much better college and started on their sophomore calculus (right, never got course credit for freshman calculus), was likely the best student in the class, was a math major, wrote an honors paper on group representations, and got 800 on the Math knowledge GRE.

So, I covered freshman calculus well just on my own from just a calculus book. You can too. Indeed, if you take a calculus course, mostly you learn from the book anyway.

Just study the material from the book before the course instead of mostly from the book (which usually you have to do anyway) during the course. If you get hung up, then ask for some help, on-line, from some videos (if they help -- not all of them are good), knock on the door of a prof and ask a question, etc. Tell him you are studying on your own and want to be clear on, say,

  f'(x) =  lim (f(x + h) - f(x))/h
          h --> 0
or some such. Mostly a prof's office hours are not very busy, and a prof might answer one good question for you even if you are not in such a class or even in his school. If he refuses, then to heck with him!

There are some poor textbooks out there, and some of the better books will still have a poor chapter or two. A bad book or chapter can be a chuckhole in the road but only if you let it. If some material seems not well written, like drilling through bedrock, or needing prerequisites you don't have, then get 1-3 alternate sources, maybe just by photocopying some chapters from some books in a library or buying some books as supplements. E.g., there is a book on linear algebra by E. Nearing, and it quite good except it has a chapter in an appendix on linear programming that is just awful. Nearing understood a lot of linear algebra but not linear programming!

So, get copies of, say, the three best books. Learn mostly from the best book and use the other two for alternate explanations (so that you won't get stuck and won't misunderstand).

Now, textbooks are darned expensive, the latest editions, in hardcover, commonly over $100 a copy. Three such books could set you back $300 -- bummer. So, instead, in nearly all undergraduate courses in engineering, get used texts, in good condition, 5-10 years old. Such books will still be plenty good and will save you a bundle of money.

E.g., I took sophomore calculus from the text by Johnson and Kiokemeister. At the time, it was also used at Harvard. It's a beautifully written, highly polished book. Tough to write a better calculus book.

So right away from a Google search at

     http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Kiokemeisters-Calculus-Analytic-Geometry/dp/020504218X
can see

     Johnson & Kiokemeister's Calculus with Analytic
     Geometry [Hardcover]

     6 used from $9.25
So, can get it for $10. Don't pay a lot for a great textbook.

Actually I got my copy 'used' from a student who had tried the course the previous year and learned that he should major in English or some such instead! More generally, due to such circumstances, a lot of used technical books are actually in quite good condition.

You don't have to work all the exercises, but you should work enough exercises so that you are sure you can work all or nearly all of them. A good textbook will have in the back answers to half or more of the exercises; so check your work with the answers. Occasionally an answer is wrong. If you suspect such, then maybe e-mail the author! Or ask a local prof to check your solution and impress him that you beat the textbook!

Occasionally let a difficult exercise go unsolved or ask for help; in some books, 1-2% of the exercises are in there poorly written, out of place (need material not yet covered in the book or not in the book), or are to see if a student can recreate some brilliantly clever argument mostly unrelated to the book. Don't let yourself get hung up on 1-2% of the exercises afraid you missed something -- give such an exercise a good shot, then just ask for help or drop it.

Continue this theme of self study, especially if you want to go for a Ph.D. E.g., at one time the Web site of the Princeton math department just flatly stated that the graduate courses were introductions to research by world experts; no courses were given for preparation for the qualifying exams; and for the qualifying exams students were expected to prepare on their own. Indeed, in that case, why bother to be on campus in expensive Princeton, NJ?

So, broadly, you can get a Bachelor's paying little or no tuition.

Then for a Ph.D., or even some Master's degrees, the big trump card is having published some research in a good, peer-reviewed, academic journal of original research.

For how to do the research, that would need another post!

In the whole thing, nearly all the work was self-study from used textbooks, and the tuition you paid was tiny. You cut down on time and cost commuting to campus, eating campus food, etc. You aced nearly all your courses, and you avoided a huge list of potential 'political' and other problems.

Learning is not a spectator sport but an individual thing with hard work, done alone in a quiet room. You can blow a lot of time and money going to class when what you really need is just hard work, alone, in a quiet room, which, indeed, the courses won't much replace anyway.

Not everyone learns the same way. But, since you learned the material before you took the course, the profs never get to see how you learned; you never fell behind in a course; you aced courses, and you never got criticized for your learning style.

Net, lack of money is no great reason not to get a degree, even a Ph.D., in engineering. Indeed, the main challenge is just the learning and, then, research; if you can do that, mostly on your own, then money for your degree is not a biggie.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#156
post #141
post #101

The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount o…

New Zealand has a similar system. All kiwis can get a student loan, which you can put class fees, some living costs and a few other expenses under. You can also apply for a student allowance which you don't have to pay back, but you have to qualify (e.g. you and your family are poor). With the student loan, it's a no interest loan as long as you're in the country. If you leave it defaults to a normal loan (not sure t…

Australia has the same full-time study allowance (Youth Allowance). When I was at uni it was about $350 a fortnight. Enough money for rent in a share house, food, a carton of cheap beer and perhaps some petrol. You could survive on it if you were frugal.

The weirdest part was the means testing to make sure you were 'independent' and hence eligible to recieve the government money regardless of your parents assets. My parents werent poor but they were in no position to pay my living expenses whilst I went to uni.

Proving you were independent involved showing you'd worked full time for over a year or earnt a massive amount of money in a short period of time (I cant remember exactly but it was around $15k).

I worked 12 hour days at a factory over the summer break for 2 and a half months and with some other part time work managed to meet the income requirements. I started uni with a very healthy bank account.

I just thought it was somewhat weird that I had to work so hard and earn so much money...so I was eligible for the government to give me more money.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#157
post #143
post #14

I agree with the ultimate sentiment, which is that it's generally inadvisable to try and pay your way through school these days. The federal government will let you and your parents borrow as much as you need to pay for school, and you'll make more money after you finish your degree, so your efforts are better spent trying to finish in as few semesters as possible to minimize the amount of money you need to borrow in…

It gets stranger with graduate school. I'm currently a PhD student. I quit a fairly lucrative trading career in 2010 and went back to school without any intention of doing a GRA (I was fine with self-funding; to be honest, I wanted to not have a boss for a while)... that lasted one semester. My adviser realized she liked the idea of paying 1/10 my old salary and getting an actual software engineer on her staff. I'm n…

I've seen others make a comparable choice for the same reason of independence and also for getting out of workplace politics. I'm completing a GRA now, though not self-directed and only for a Master's. Though the stipend is… humble, without it, I wouldn't even have gone to grad school.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#158
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be reading this wrong, but from what I understand anyone can file a Schedule A (which allows you to itemize your deductions), but in doing so you give up the standard deductions for your tax bracket, which for a single filer is 5350. So at 7.5% of her adjusted gross of ~25k which is $1875. So if her medical expenses are less than 5350 it would most likely make the most sense for her to take the standard deducti…

Ah, "can" was too strong, "saves money over taking the standard deduction" is what I meant. I noticed something about a 2% haircut when skimming Wikipedia's entry on this, don't know if it would apply. Properly filling out a Schedule A would also cost, either in paying a preparer or opportunity cost in learning how to do it.

Agreed. These write offs were more of an after thought. It looks like she could also write off her educational costs as long as they are to "advance her career", which would effectively bring her gross taxable income pretty darn low and keep the financial aid coming.

That is, of course, if she is footing the bill like she says and her parents aren't helping her out.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#159
post #14

I agree with the ultimate sentiment, which is that it's generally inadvisable to try and pay your way through school these days. The federal government will let you and your parents borrow as much as you need to pay for school, and you'll make more money after you finish your degree, so your efforts are better spent trying to finish in as few semesters as possible to minimize the amount of money you need to borrow in…

" The federal government will let you and your parents borrow as much as you need to pay for school" If that is the case, why is Ingrid saying that she cannot? "All of my debt is government loans, but this time around I don’t even have the option to take those out."

Independent students don't have the same power not having a parent to sign off on the PLUS loan.

Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school

#160
I don't get it. Why can't you get loans? You don't pay them back while you are in school, and afterwards the minimum cost per month is pretty low. I had full, $16k per term FAFSA support for 12 terms, and then needed one more to finish some things up (poor planning). Federal student loans saw me through.

Although, yes, it's immensely frustrating that they take whatever money they can. I spent all the money I saved up from high school right before college so they couldn't take it away.

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