Man, you should put a big "call with Twilio" button right on the page to dial straight out to the representatives then and there.
Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
151–160 of 232 posts
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#152Just called my representative! I spoke the receptionist, who was very nice. I told her repeatedly to support Representative Amash's amendment to HR-2397. She requested my full name, zip code, and email address. Happy to help, from Restore the Fourth San Francisco!
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.
Countries are just arbitrary divisions. Just because you are born in a certain geographic region doesn't mean you are the property of the government of that region. Every person is a human being with inherent rights and freedoms. You think we are all equal, but Americans are just more equal than others? Dividing people is counter productive and antiquated. We are all unified as citizens of Earth and denizens of the i…
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Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if it ultimately doesn't work, don't you think it's worth trying rather than just going around saying it won't work? It's likely going to be a long, slow process to change this, and we need all the wins we can get, if only to prevent apathy and show others who are on the fence that there's enough public outrage over this that they should get involved too. If we do manage to get it passed and then there are new l…
No. I don't think it's worth trying. If this is your goal, I think there are far more effective ways to go about it. 1. First, you'll need a political organization that is single-mindedly focused on this one issue. You'll need donors, professional lobbyists, a PR team, and a massive grassroots organization. Think Anti-Saloon League meets Rules for Radicals. 2. Then you focus on one or two elections of prominent polit…
I agree with you that those are all good ways to take action, but I disagree with you that this bill is not worth trying as well. This doesn't target specific NSA programs by name, but amends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act to forbid its use to collect records for people who are not subject to an investigation under that same Section. It's far from an end to domestic surveillance, but it's a significant limitation on the legality of what they're currently doing. Why should we have to elect new people to Congress before taking any further action when we have members of Congress pushing good and legitimate measures already? Should more be done in addition to this? Absolutely. I think it's completely asinine to say that this is a worthless measure, however, and that no one should even try.
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.
Countries are just arbitrary divisions. Just because you are born in a certain geographic region doesn't mean you are the property of the government of that region. Every person is a human being with inherent rights and freedoms. You think we are all equal, but Americans are just more equal than others? Dividing people is counter productive and antiquated. We are all unified as citizens of Earth and denizens of the i…
> We are all unified as citizens of Earth and denizens of the internet.
That's something we would all probably like, but that's not actually true to this point. Today we can't even keep $FOOs from killing $BARs (or other $FOOs) when they're in the same national boundary, so why would you pretend the world is something other than what it actually is?
FWIW I think the U.S. needs to normalize how it conducts surveillance with other nations and political entities, but I don't think that should apply to everyone. Instead it should be dependent on bilateral treaty (we won't spy or do this list of things to you, without arranging with your Foreign Ministry, and you won't do those things to us without arranging with our Dept. of State).
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.
First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections. And the Declaration of Independence (which is not legally binding the way the Constitution is, but should give an idea of the mindset of the time) states all men are created equal. Second, if we believe ideologically that privacy is a human right that should be protected, it is hypocritical to then say "Oh, but…
> First, the Constitution itself doesn't say that only U.S. citizens in U.S. territory enjoy its protections.
The Constitution itself doesn't say a lot about hardly anything. I just looked at it (the real thing) the other day, it's even shorter than it seems at first from looking at it online.
In the event, the courts have consistently ruled that Constitutional protections are not completely binding everywhere in the world, even protections included in the Bill of Rights. The Fourth Amendment specifically does not apply outside U.S. borders, for example, even though it does apply to anyone in U.S. borders (not just U.S. citizens).
> And the Declaration of Independence (which is not legally binding the way the Constitution is, but should give an idea of the mindset of the time) states all men are created equal.
I don't think this really helps your argument. The mindset of the time were the Negroes were not even men, for example, and they certainly had no 'right' to privacy according to those who issued the Declaration.
So I'm sympathetic to the point. I think we need to change something to bring our law in accordance with norms we'd expect for the Internet. But just pointing to the 'Charters of Freedom' will not help your argument (others have tried and failed), and they don't mean today what you think they mean.
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#157Important point: (This point was made clear in the actual page, but some of the comments suggest that not everyone understood it.) The title to this posting (and the name of the website) are misleading. This is not a proposal to block funding for the NSA. And that's good, because such a proposal would have NO chance of passing, and would probably be a bad idea anyhow. Instead, this is a proposal to block funding for…
Also important: money is fungible. To block funding for a particular activity is to say that Congress appropriates money per activity. I don’t think that’s the case, but would happily be corrected. So a law that states ‘here’s your money, but you’re not allowed to use it for x’ seems toothless in the extreme. It’s words on a page. Keep in mind also that the NSA is close to lawless, so any room for interpretation will…
This is already thought about. You are hardly the first one to realize that funds can be spent on things other than what they were appropriated for. Look up the Anti-Deficiency Act.
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#158This is something real, tangible, and valuable that we can all actually do. All of this month I have felt powerless. This is something within everyone's power to do, and it can definitely help start the ball rolling back the way it came. It is pretty unfortunate that there is such a short window of time in which this information can be disseminated. I can imagine if there were a bit more time, this could really sprea…
I still feel powerless, but of course, that's because I'm not a US citizen (though my children are, but they cannot yet speak), while my communications are also spied on by the NSA. I hope you'll be able to make a difference. Good luck on this.
It sounds so surreal that I'm having to type this out this way, but: If you're on U.S. soil the 4th Amendment applies to you, no matter what your citizenship is.
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
It should be banning surveillance of anyone not under active investigation, not simply domestically.
Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.
Because I, as a voting US Citizen, believe we should extend a great deal of rights to non-citizens. Fourth amendment and due process in particular.
Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hear Somalia is nice this time of year.
So violence in Somalia is not acceptable to you, but allowing your government a lot of violence is acceptable? If people in Somalia cannot find out a way to avoid violence it does not mean it's not possible in principle, or that government is somehow "good".
My government has not once engaged in violence to me or my family.
The one possible exception is my sister (I wasn't there when she was arrested), but you steal $10,000 worth of silver from an in-law to feed your drug habit and I can't say I'd be surprised that the government gets involved.
P.S. On that note, how does anarchy account for thieves?