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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#151

Post by axus »

khill wrote: post #39

Wouldn't the basic income value need to vary across regions? For example, the notion that: "Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on" would mean a different value in San Francisco than in Grover, NC. If the government adjusted the basic income to account for regional cost-of-living, I imagine it would be popular to maintain a fake residency in an expen…

Without having to depend on the job market, people are free to move to areas with no work and a very low cost of living, and not be bunched up in the areas with the best handouts.

The net result will probably be higher costs of living everywhere, but in the US there is so much space that the effect is diluted.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#152

Post by alexvr »

JonFish85 wrote: post #119
alexvr wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe instead of giving everyone cash, the government could provide people with a default shelter, food plan, etc.

How's the government going to decide where to put people? The poor people get to live in the richest neighborhoods in NYC? Or do they get pushed out to the cheaper areas of Harlem? In the first scenario, the costs are insanely high. In the second, you're forcing the poor into a bad neighborhood. Food: who decides who gets what? Vegan options OK? Food allergies? Only organic? Whenever personal decisions are left to th…

No, I'm suggesting that the government should offer only the bare minimum with very little freedom of choice if anything at all.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#153

Post by dragonwriter »

joshuaellinger wrote: post #2

It misses the fact that work is fulfilling for (most) people. I've heard talk of the government being the employer of last resort, which has its own problems. But just paying people to breath has problems as well.

> It misses the fact that work is fulfilling for (most) people.

No, it doesn't, instead, it leverages it. Basic income increases labor mobility and increases the ability of people to find the most fulfilling work (which may not be the most financially rewarding, especially in short term analysis.)

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#155

Post by FreakyT »

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#156

Post by btilly »

nawitus wrote: post #26
randomknowledge wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are details to work out but it is fundamentally a solvable problem. A tax on any coal natural gas or oil should cover most of the bases (per ton of carbon contained). If it is being purchased for a use that won't end up in the atmosphere (IE carbon capture and storage), the burden is on the purchaser to prove the case for a tax write-off.

I don't think there's a reason to couple a CO2 tax to basic income. You can create a CO2 tax separately from basic income, as it has enough opponents as it is.

I suggested coupling them because I was looking for something that fits, "Solve as many problems with one go as possible, getting rid of as much legislation as possible."

If you create a significant CO2 tax separately from some specific program, like basic income, the fear is that it will be (and will seen to be) just a general supplement on government spending. Which has a tendency to grow until it cannot, so you're just putting off an inevitable crunch that we're already bumping up against.

But if you tie them together, the pain of the tax is balanced by the pleasure of the income. And people have been shown to enjoy that sort of thing. Witness the popularity of tax refunds, even though getting one is strictly worse for you than not getting one.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#157

Post by jchrisa »

BWStearns wrote: post #134
dllthomas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> some areas become rich elite enclaves while other areas become basic income ghettos. > This is basically the direction we're already headed in already. A flat basic income would make this better not worse , as there would be more money available serving the needs of people in these poorer areas.

I am inclined to agree with you but I'm not certain. There are some arguments that those living off of BI would form a unique subset of the population and might effectively be ghettoized at least in terms of colocation as opposed to the more economic/social aspect due to their similar needs/means.

the whole point of BI is that everyone gets it, even the rich

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#158

Post by Drakim »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Not that I think this system would work, but people do volunteer without being paid: charity, soup kitchens, etc.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#159

Post by jeffdavis »

Though some more reasonable forms of this idea exist, this particular description has some major problems:

* What if the money you pay someone does not go as far as expected? Maybe they lose some of the money in various ways, or maybe they are just very bad at negotiating economic transactions or buy the wrong kinds of things from the wrong places. Maybe they are trying to live in an expensive area -- do we kick them out?

* There will be a significant class of people who simply know nothing at all about work or participation in the economy. That may have all kinds of bad effects for those people, one of which may be a greater likelihood of the problem above.

* Some people who would otherwise be productive will put off both education and work for a while. When the time comes that they want to be involved, it will be hard for them to make the transition, and many will just stay out of the workforce forever. So, some of the ultra-productive people the author is expecting to do the heavy lifting will not exist.

* There will be pressure to stop granting new citizenship/residency to almost anyone, because the potential cost will go way up. Even if, in the long term, immigrants are good for the economy, in the short term it could be crushing if each one gets a comfortable living regardless of work.

* There will be an imbalance in which jobs are actually done. The number of computer programmers might be higher, but the number of nurses might go way down. If having a nurse is required to make some people comfortable, how do we remedy that?

* "Comfort" in general is a moving target in this process because changing the basic income will have a big effect on the economy. It's hard to say whether you could ever really find a stable value that offers anything resembling "comfort" for those living on it.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#160

Post by jeffasinger »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

For example, if the basic income was $10k/year, would you feel as though you still had an incentive to work and earn a little more money than that?
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