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The Decline and Fall of the English Major

nytimes.com

151–160 of 160 posts

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#151
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big problem lies in secondary school. There's very little exposure to formal argument, and heavy emphasis fitting ideas into a rigid paragraph structure.

I think that's a good point -- humanities classes at the high school level in general (at least in my experience) were focused on retaining information and spitting it out in a proper format. I remember reading the Iliad for AP English and being quizzed on the name of Achilles' horse.

I think questions like that are meant to check that you actually read the book, and with a certain amount of detail. High school students are notorious for skipping or skimming readings and/or relying on resources like Sparknotes, especially with more difficult texts like the Iliad.

(I may or may not be speaking from personal experience...)

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#152
post #3

It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within. Because carrying on the traditions of arts and letters was no longer considered valuable, the disciplines rushed to gut themselves in favor of far shallower and dodgier stuff, like political ideologies ("the only things that matter are race, class, and gender") and pseudo-technical gibberish. None of that has…

I have a degree in English literature and criticism. I later followed it with a degree in applied computer science. I'm glad for both, and was disappointed in both, for multiple different reasons.

I think I understand why you would accuse the humanities of being "rotten", but I'm not sure it captures my own experience of the malaise affecting college humanities departments (at least what I witnessed, with a somewhat jaundiced eye). I would say that the humanities is deeply conflicted about its purpose and relevance, and maybe even its approach and techniques. That there is little, if any, consensus on these questions. That there isn't even any agreement on whether consensus is desirable, even a surface consensus for the benefit of students. That cynicism, confusion, uncertainty and fear are rife and toxic in the minds of faculty and administration. That this is in many ways a reflection of the mind of society at large, especially our leadership, actual or effective.

On the other hand, the purpose of technical training is less contentious, and it's focus is generally not challenged much. There are questions about technique and content, and there is wide variance in teaching talent, but overall, most scientific disciplines have done a good job of building a reasonable syllabus based on foundational theory and mixed practise. We can feel confident after taking a scientific that we have acquired some amount of true knowledge and useful understanding.

But the exact opposite seems to be true of humanities, whether studied institutionally or privately. The same questions which have haunted us since the beginning of human history still haunt us today. These questions are all philosophical; the best, most honest answer to virtually all of them is, still, "We don't know." Throughout history, numerous people, including many undoubted geniuses, have suggested answers and made tremendous arguments. Today, many of those answers are still compelling, but, over time, their justifications have eroded under scrutiny. The more we look at human nature, and the more anecdotal evidence we collect, the more we fail to understand it.

That is the nature of art and letters: it is a vast and ever-growing accumulation of mostly anecdotal evidence which intelligent, talented and persuasive people throughout history have tried to use to validate their own opinions of the nature of human nature, life and existence. And most of it, no matter how beautifully presented, is all so much empty rhetoric, and completely unproven.

A programme in humanities, therefor, amounts to a lot of time and energy spent studying well-spoken (or otherwise well-illustrated), but failed attempts to provide insight into the core questions of philosophy. Many have embraced this uncertainty, but not answering a question is still a kind of answer. It never definitively proves that the question is invalid. And yet few seem willing to accept, and virtually none are satisfied with the truth: "We don't know."

As a result, the programme has degenerated into a cacophony. And yet, for the purposes of administrative coherence and the need to fulfill some sort of comprehensible structure, in order to reliably function in a standardized institutional setting, we still offer "courses" with focused areas of subject, and degrees made of such courses. Faculty members must continue to publish papers and/or creative works of their own. In all ways, schools must continue to behave as though they had some kind of coherent sense of their purpose and significance, despite a complete lack of any such belief in anyone's mind. We continue to allow these so-called specialists to decide, on society's (or at least education's) behalf what it means to study, find value, and finally "understand" these questions, or at least the techniques of, and approaches to, attempting to answer them.

So what we have is a sort of free-for-all disguised as a serious occupation, and a large body of highly paid specialists essentially run amok. No one knows what they are trying to accomplish, or what their level of success is or has been, so we just take them on their word that they are doing it, or that at least they are trying. With each passing year, the map of the territory continues to grow, but we are no better equipped to navigate through it. At least, it seems that the tools that educators and researchers might be using, from the social sciences, are not being used in ways which might help them, at least with any real scientific rigour. On the contrary, science continues to be misunderstood, misinterpreted and misapplied by humanities faculty, to the detriment of everyone (themselves, their students, and society and culture at large).

One of the most important features of the scientific programme is that of prioritizing knowledge based on our confidence in its truth and reliability. While historians of science may continue to study the failed efforts and discredited theories of the past, we do not, as a rule, teach these to practising scientists and engineers. They represent curiosities, or negative lessons in how to study science. The humanities either cannot, or will not, follow suit. The most important fight in the history of humanities was that over the "canon", and it was a decisive loss for everyone. There is no accepted way to prioritize works. The yardstick of truth is not applicable. Beauty, subject matter, technique, form: all are matters of taste. And the simple and undeniable fact is that you cannot study taste. You can study matter and technique, and to some extent you can judge the difference between the attempt and the result, but even that has its detractors. When truth cannot be known, every opinion is valid, and no arguments are final.

Attempting to endure this nightmare of existential uncertainty is attractive to very few people. For those who enjoy art, and would like to spend their days discussing it, and especially those who like having an audience for their own opinions, for which they have a rather high regard, academia is an attractive option. No one can prove you wrong, but popularity can prove your right, at least for a time.

Interestingly, this isn't that different from software start-ups, which are, more and more, about popularity and fashion than they are about inventing new things and the transforming the world.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#153
post #100
post #23

I'll say this: more so than any other department or discipline (yes, including computer science), I think a person would benefit most from a few properly taught college English classes. Well-taught classes (and I took enough good and bad English classes to recognize the distinction) are completely irreplaceable by Google or MOOCs. They focus overwhelmingly on the art of discourse: sure, there are papers and exams but…

"100-level English classes were about punctuation and grammar" They are--which is, luckily, one of many reasons I placed out of them. "A good professor wants to teach you that Frankenstein is an allegory for the Industrial Revolution, or the creation of Man; a great professor knows the conversation that Shelley had with Chaucer and Milton and everyone in between..." Or they could write a book and you could read it fo…

Or they could write a book and you could read it for free at the library, or online.

Because, as I said in my original comment, the value of good English courses lies less in the dissemination of information and more in the underlying discourse. To borrow a weak metaphor: reading a lot of criticisms and interpretations is like having someone lift the barbell while you're on the bench. Sure, you might tax your arms a little bit but you're not actually working out.

Why limit knowledge to people who have $50,000/year to blow on college? Not everyone is rich and upper class. Can only people from well off families become "properly" educated? ... To me, at least, intelligence and a drive to learn are far greater indicators of someone's likely degree of sophistication than how much their parents spent on their four year vacation to some over priced campus.

This is completely irrelevant to the point I made, and it appears you're just trying to rail against the college system as a whole. Which is cool, I guess.

I've seen too many english and other writing intensive liberal arts majors graduate without knowing the difference between your and you're, its and it's, to really have any respect for the degree. Oddly, my scientist friends have few problems with attention to detail and understanding basic syntax, despite not spending four years on mastering the subject. I suspect this is because they already mastered it in high school, if not earlier, much like myself.

I don't want to disparage your anecdotal evidence, but I -- and imagine many, many others -- have had the exact opposite experience. The average literacy and communication ability of a STEM graduate is far below that of a humanities grad. Also, the implication of this passage is that anyone who goes into a liberal arts major is less intelligent than anyone who goes into a science. I'd like you to qualify that because it sounds condescending as hell.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#154
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 5-paragraph essay gets a lot of hate, much of it deserved as it gets overused, but I've found it a very helpful tool to get students to organize their thoughts. I used to help tutor East Asian ESL students and getting them to understand how to make an argument and then support it with evidence was difficult, but once they grokked how it worked, vastly improved their communications. Were I a regular English teache…

the 5-paragraph structure is wonderful. I used (a 4-paragraph version of) it for my MCATs in one essay and used the french equivalent (these - antithese - synthese) in another - mind you you have 30 minutes to organize and write each essay. It forces you to do exactly that, think about what your point is and put in a place where your reader will actually see it, and not drown it in a sea of words. A scientific paper…

Well, make no mistake: the 5-paragraph structure is a crutch. It's like a coloring book: all the lines are drawn for you and you fill it in. That's not a bad thing, though, because you're learning about muscle control and coloration and texture... but it's completely different from drawing your own picture.

At the point you've learned how to construct an argument and substantiate it with supporting claims, you're ready to leave it behind for longer (or shorter!), less structured forms... or to pull it back out when you feel it's appropriate.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#155
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At the time, if anyone had asked me "what are you going to 'do' with that? what about the economics?" (and I know this, because they did), I would have said that economics aren't everything. Are they?" While I was in art school, I can't count the number of times I heard the phrase: "Would you like fries with that?" #2 was always something about underwater basketweaving. I guess the humor/affirmation didn't translate…

Haha, oh goodness. It seems an apology is actually due. Sorry, pjbrunet-- I thought your remark quite mean-spirited on the first go. But I'm delighted to know my interpretation was incorrect!

Whoever initially decided to repurpose McDonald's sales language, I passed the downvotes to them. Coincidentally, my girlfriend/classmate worked at McDonald's through college. She took no student loans. (Her father was kicked out of our school for clearing the dean's desk in response to "Poor boys like you don't belong here.") I expected to make six-figures as a digital artist (somewhere like ILM) straight out of college and the economy was thriving. Maybe that's why I blew off the basketweaving jabs. But as this thread demonstrates, maybe those were missed opportunities to discuss artistic ideals, why potential suffering would be worth it. At that point I had no idea some writers literally ate dog food to survive while working on their books or that an artist like DeKooning nearly lost his teeth from starvation. What was the real intent behind "Would you like fries with that?" I don't know. But it has a ring to it ;-)

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#157
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your comment already takes for granted that there's no purpose in studying literature other than a career in academia (presumably because education is only about careers to begin with). I'd say the battle for the things worth caring about here was lost long before that assumption became not-even-worth-bothering-to-make-explicit. And sure, the economics are pathetic and the profession is rife with horseshit. The r…

My undergrad degree in literature might not have gotten me a high-paying job out of college, but it helped me live a life that I wanted. I had the privilege of doing my final two years of college at a school where grades weren't given out for papers in the English department. You'd write a one-page response paper to a Shakespeare play, where you'd have to make a cogent argument/close reading and in response, you'd ge…

> But if the new reality is that college is only good for pushing out technicians and a liberal arts education is only for suckers, then we've just added one more depressing symptom pointing to a diagnosis that there's something deeply awry in our nation's economic system and social priorities.

I think the problem is more that people expect to be employable after going to college. If you are independently wealthy and are just going for laughs, sure, the lack of concrete utility in an English degree is not a problem. But I don't think that's the position of most college students. They want all those intangible benefits you discussed (live with an open heart, understand things, etc.), but they also intend to put themselves on the path to a comfortable life, and they don't find out until after graduating with an English degree and a ton of debt that they only get the intangible benefits and are on roughly the same career trajectory as they were before they went to college.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#158
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Representational art was valuable in those days, worth spending time on, because they didn't have Internet, TV, movies, photography, magazines, etc. 3D representation of objects on a 2D surface was still a new, challenging concept. Those Renaissance painters aimed to reach Joe Sixpack who was illiterate. Representational art wasn't meant to be that challenging. No surprise Average Joe still nods his head in approval:…

I absolutely agree. I don't think a return to old forms is what's in order. But a return to art that the average Joe can look at and think "no way my 6-year-old could do that". And that's the problem today, so much of current art is something a 6-year-old could envision. And the unfortunate reality is, if the art looks like it was made with a lack of sophistication, the message it's trying to convey must be unsophist…

This is why you need the museum, art critic, docent and the monstrous gold frame around a humble Cezanne painting of some fruit on a table. Half of Van Gogh's work was destroyed, dismissed as trash. Van Gogh was an unsophisticated man. To avoid this fate and gain credibility, artists and writers will add superfluous flourishes. The way I see it, art often gets the "sophistication upgrade" to meet the sophisticated audience halfway. LOL.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Post script, you can like pop and Bach at the same time and there's precisely nothing wrong with that. THIS. And let me add Bach is (was) the dance music of yesteryears (follow the 3/4). (Mozart was probably rock) The thing with "modern music is crap" has one factor helping it, we never got to hear Bach's time crap music. (Note: the above is my opinion based on my shallow knowledge of music)

> "Bach is (was) the dance music of yesteryears (follow the 3/4). (Mozart was probably rock)" Not so much. Bach and Mozart were employed by quite wealthy individuals to compose and perform pieces for nobility and aristocracy. The only way the proletariat population would have heard their work would have been in a church-setting of some sort, probably performed by someone with very little skill or training. >"we never…

Mostly right, actually Bach was a church music director for most of his career (though he did the Royal court thing also). The great majority of his body of work is vocal liturgical church music.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#160
post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

I guess a lot of it comes down to quality of instruction. One of my most eye opening experiences as an English major was when I turned an essay about a religious text (honestly I forget which one). The essay used a writing style that intentionally aped Nietzche's "Twilight of the Idols" to eviscerate the idea of religiosity. It was the type of essay I was used to getting an A on, because I was showing off all of my p…

This is one of the reasons I hate Nietzche.
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