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Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

code.org

151–160 of 187 posts

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#151
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both you and the grandparent are making a mistake. He assumes children dislike math. You assume children will like karel. I think the truth is that children have different interests and that you can only bring them to programming by latching on to those interests. Many children like math. Many other children will not like karel. The result: to engage as many children as possible, you need several introductory…

Nobody assumes that children inherently dislike maths. They can't dislike something they don't even know. The point is that children start to dislike maths once they go to school. And they do - all kids in my class either already knew basic maths before going to school or were completely bored by it. The same will happen with programming once it will be "taught" in schools as well. Think of it this way - if you want…

I appreciate your math, but it is slightly flawed.

You can get a bigger n, not by increasing class sizes alone, but also by letting teachers teach for longer per day than children learn. I.e. use you math per hour taught, not for salary.

What this means in practice is, use teachers for higher value added work, but let computers (or somebody less qualified) oversee other parts of the learning process.

What seems to work fairly well (I remember a study about it), is to let students read material at home, but solve problems in class. That's the opposite of the traditional getting lectured-at in class / exercises as homework approach.

Khan academy is another vector for leveraging teachers. It does not replace a good teacher, but it can augment a teacher.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#152
post #104
post #73

Hear me out. I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if…

You make a lot of assumptions about how kids have to be taught coding. > I tried everything possible. Every other trick in the trade. Even tried to start with Python first and not C. > They struggle to understand where or why should you use an if/else/switch statement, or a for/do/while loop. Its difficult for them to map solution patterns to a code pattern. Its not their fault. Its ours. Better luck trying to explai…

> We start teaching with a simplified language called "karel" ... It's just a few commands and a dog.

Off topic, but curious: why does the language have semi-colons?

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#154

I'm making www.codehs.com which is one of the sites featured in the video (the one with the dog). It would be awesome to get some feedback on what people think of it if you get a chance to try it out. We're focusing on making it really fun and accessible to learn to make really cool programs really quickly while learning the fundamentals and getting a strong programming foundation. One of the keys to our site is that…

I looked at the video; did not register for it. I've been working for a while at a very similar idea (basically porting rur-ple, another Karel clone which I wrote 8 years ago, to the web) ... but I intend for it to be free. Kudos for you to want to create a business out of it, but my aim is simply altruistic.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#155
post #151
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody assumes that children inherently dislike maths. They can't dislike something they don't even know. The point is that children start to dislike maths once they go to school. And they do - all kids in my class either already knew basic maths before going to school or were completely bored by it. The same will happen with programming once it will be "taught" in schools as well. Think of it this way - if you want…

I appreciate your math, but it is slightly flawed. You can get a bigger n, not by increasing class sizes alone, but also by letting teachers teach for longer per day than children learn. I.e. use you math per hour taught, not for salary. What this means in practice is, use teachers for higher value added work, but let computers (or somebody less qualified) oversee other parts of the learning process. What seems to wo…

The problem is that if you tell schools to implement "computer supervised" coding learning, they will tell the students to write a factorial implementation and then they'll test it for bit-perfect match with some "perfect" solution.

This way they will verify correctness, good indentation, meaningful naming of variables and so on. Because somebody in the school/government heard that this is what professionals care about.

IMO launching a media campaign which pushes schools to "teach" every child to program, without any plan prepared by professional teachers and developers and then permanent, ongoing support from such professionals, is asking for disaster. And the grandgrand...parent provided an example of such disaster.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#156
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a lot of assumptions about how kids have to be taught coding. > I tried everything possible. Every other trick in the trade. Even tried to start with Python first and not C. > They struggle to understand where or why should you use an if/else/switch statement, or a for/do/while loop. Its difficult for them to map solution patterns to a code pattern. Its not their fault. Its ours. Better luck trying to explai…

> We start teaching with a simplified language called "karel" ... It's just a few commands and a dog. Off topic, but curious: why does the language have semi-colons?

Because it's Java.

Also, significant whitespace is a pain in the ass.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We start teaching with a simplified language called "karel" ... It's just a few commands and a dog. Off topic, but curious: why does the language have semi-colons?

Because it's Java. Also, significant whitespace is a pain in the ass.

It seems to be JavaScript, not Java.

Semi-colons are great for real programming. They help deal with ambiguity when you want to split something over several lines yadda yadda let's not have the debate here.

But I don't see it's utility in something like this. It becomes one of those "just because" answers if someone asks why you need to put a semi-colon at the end of the line.

I could understand it if it was pitched at an "almost ready to write real code", but from what I've seen, and looking over the chapter headings, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I guess really I'm trying to look at the balance between using a DSL in a real language and using a toy DSL with a simple syntax when introducing basic concepts and shaping how people think about problems.

I use "real" to mean anything written outside of the CodeHS playpen.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good point, but I'll take it a step further. The kid that likes drawing doesn't have to be a programmer, so stop trying to teach it to him and let him draw without the constraints that programming brings. We don't all have to be the same.

Meanwhile, the kid who likes programming will probably be drawn to it naturally, as well. I know I was, a long time ago. I can appreciate wanting to lower the barrier to entry for such kids, but I honestly don't think it's excessively high to start with.

Friends of my age who were drawn into programming did so probably because when you turned on the (8bit) computer it was waiting for you to write a program. It was the default action. How would an iPad user be naturally drawn into coding? If you don't have friends around you who do it and serve as an example (or a classroom where you are presented with that possibility), I think few would come up with the idea of writing programs themselves.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks OK to me using Firefox and Chrome on Ubuntu.

I tried in Chromium on Ubuntu, and Firefox and IE on Windows. It looks trainwreck-y on all of them for me. By the process of elimination, I believe it's because I'm using a T-mobile wireless dongle. The upstream proxy attempts to reduce bandwidth by doing things like coalescing external CSS and JS inline. I've seen this break one other site (LinkedIn profile editing, which seemed to be a bit fast and loose about its…

It does. Google Chrome has the largest market share.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#160
As cheesy as this video is they're right. My kids do not learn coding in school. Our area high school teaches kids how to use computers but there is no coding classes. When I went to school in the late 80's we have a program that allowed us to move a turtle on a green computer screen. It was my first exposure to programming. I wish schools would put more importance on this skill. Even if kids do not get into technology, knowing a programming language is an invaluable skill in any industry.
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