Earlier quoted context omitted.
You post this every time, and I want to decry the astro turfing.. but it's good information, well referenced, and I don't have the background or time to refute anything you've said.
I don't think posting the same information again and again is welcome. The people who might be inspired to debate it simply can't have a discussion about it every time it appears - and it goes beyond wanting to engage with the community and share something and becomes an attempt to manipulate. I'd certainly encourage tokenadult to stop posting it.
What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
151–160 of 177 posts
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#152As a hiring manager, the thing I find most interesting on posts like this (ignoring that the analogy is TERRIBLE) are the comments of people used to being on the other side of the desk. I don't think we (as interviewers) do a good job of explaining why we ask the questions we ask. And I don't think we do a good job of communicating what our job is. Our job is to stop you getting hired. If we get 100 people applying f…
So then, by definition, you have perfect employees. Congrats. I'm sure this extends to the perfect sales team, perfect product team, etc. That is impressive.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then you are the one being short-sighted here. A good engineer is a good engineer is a good engineer, someone with great learning aptitude is a great asset for any company. Say you hire someone for today's task, but next year the technology changes and the guy you hired is horrible at learning new things. What do you do? Do you fire him and hire someone for next year's task? What if the old technology still requires…
Of course I'm looking for people who can learn. I'm looking for people who will jump onto Stack Overflow and Google before spending a week reinventing the wheel. I'm looking for someone who writes in a dozen languages (like human languages, someone who knows a couple can pick up more very easily). But I don't want people learning the "right now" skill on my time. If I need a PHP developer right now, then I'm going to…
What an arrogant prick.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#154Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interviewer#3: We are willing to accept 8 years of education with a Master's or equivalent on the subject of 2010 Escort navigation systems in lieu of 10 years driving experience, for otherwise qualified candidates Completely off-topic response to your note, but I loved my 2000 Focus and I was almost sad to sell it. It went through air intake hoses on the transmission about as fast as it did gasoline (hyperbole, but…
> got my wife from Tucson to Seattle as safe as could be It's a lot safer, I would have thought, per mile to do long highway drives than lots of short urban journeys, particularly on the separated highways in the USA.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
You probably won't be doing pointer arithmetic in C#. It's been about 5 years since I wrote any C#, but I don't remember any... mostly I remember it as a Java clone, which would preclude pointer arithmetic.
C# has pointers (although you're rarely going to use them)
This analogy is proving more accurate as I read thru the comments.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#157Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#158Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
"They're worth 10 times the next rung down" So you will pay 10 times more salary, rather than waiting a couple of months for a new engineer to get up to speed? You must be in a hurry . What about all those other employers doing enterprise CRUD apps, are they in a similar hurry? "I need to fill the position with the best possible person" I assume then you are not working on enterprise CRUD or dinky mobile apps like ev…
I wont pay 10 times as much, but I'll pay a premium. And someone else getting up to speed wont make them the best person for the job. It will make them adequate.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#160I've both participated in and executed hiring processes in a mid-size (~500 emps) corporation where just about everyone wears ties or biz-casual (gross).
I sat in on one department's hiring rounds with about six candidates. What the dept was looking for was a programmer who had MS/.NET experience to develop on the MediaRoom platform (I managed the internal development team, hence my sitting in; responsibility for operating MediaRoom was under the other dept, however, so this candidate was not going to be able to be part of my team (stupid corporate organizational bullshit where dept mgrs squabble and scramble for stupid feelings of control and shit)). The questions the dept came up with and spent 1-2 hrs torturing the candidates with included zero questions about programming experience and aptitude-gauging type of inquiries. No questions about past projects, current interests, or anything remotely helpful. All the questions that were technical revolved around sysadmin tasks or how many damn acronyms the candidate was familiar with from MS's alphabet soup of platforms & products--literally asking if the candidate knew what they meant, not if they understood purpose or anything else like that. For a fucking programming job. The position stayed open for a year-and-a-half without being filled.
Biggest problem I saw? The interview was designed by a guy with zero programming experience trying to hire a programmer. Why the questions he chose? Best I can tell, servers and sysadmin tasks were something his dept had long done, and something he semi-understood (but didn't do himself).
In contrast, when I ran hiring for my dept, I requested explicit permission to direct the interviews myself, instead of having them led by HR (though an HR rep was still there). Before setting up an interview, my team and I would meet the candidate for lunch just to get to know them a bit. It was sort of our version of testing- or phone-based screening processes. We could figure out more in an hour lunch that we could trust than automated tests or other devices.
After the first candidate's official interview, I heard HR was talking about it. By the second candidate's interview two days later, the SVP of HR sat in on the process with the other HR person who was always there. What was most interesting to HR, apparently, was that candidates didn't display any of the typical nervous behaviors that are so common. About 10 minutes in, we had them relaxed, talking and smiling and laughing like normal, discussing things they did in their free time to take a break from programming, talking about the projects they'd loved and hated the most--even talking about times they'd fucked up. That last bit was really fun to watch HR react to, as they hadn't ever experienced anyone talking about times they'd done something wrong in an interview.
There were no bullshit how-would-you-resolve-a-stupid-conflict-with-a-coworker questions. We asked some general tech and programming questions, shot the shit about open source projects that impressed the candidate. The focus, though, was on collaborative tasks where the entire dev team went through a couple exercises with the candidate as if s/he was part of the team already, letting the candidate lead, but basically serving as a normal team would--asking questions, raising objections, saying what a good idea or novel approach something was. It was a great way to get a feel for what it'd be like to work through a problem together.
By the time we'd interviewed 4 people, we'd already hired 2 of them and I had to push pretty hard to get a very competitive offer out immediately before finishing all the rounds. I nagged the hell out of them till they were willing to break their own rules of waiting till all interviews were done. Our positions did not stay open even one month before we hired three new people. But making them successful required a lot of effort on my part to plead and nag and bargain to get processes bent so we could pull it off.
Hiring feels broken in many businesses. But it doesn't have to be.
Disclaimer: This was a mid-size company. I'm not saying that companies who receive hundreds or thousands of applicants can afford to take the time to do things this way. I can say that every interview that has ever meant a damn to me were the ones where the people interviewing actually took the time to be relaxed, get to know me a bit, and just make interviewing more like having a conversation. It's not coincidence that each one of those happened to be over coffee or lunch or somewhere away from a conference room and table as the first meeting.