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Java 27

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Re: Java 27

#151

Post by flakes »

hyperpape wrote: post #108
kllrnohj wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair, although even there I don't know if I'd call that "lots" at just 23 added or modified methods that aren't in preview

There are also bug-fixes and performance improvements that are not going to show on the page I linked. I do think it’s plausible this is a smaller release. Not that this was the real point of the discussion, but I think it’s still just a good idea to have more than one release a year. It keeps things moving smoothly, and lowers the cost of missing a release, which has beneficial effects.

I started programming when Java 6 was relatively new. Back then it was about 3-4 years in between releases. Although I don’t write much Java any more, I’m happy to see changes shipping more frequently now.

Re: Java 27

#152

Post by pron »

akkad33 wrote: post #140
pron wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They lack in performance, stability (compatibility), observability (telemetry), productivity, or some combination thereof. They are chosen, of course (especially C#; Go and Rust are far behind), but not as much as Java.

I don't agree. If anything these newer languages have better tooling and new projects are always built from ground up to support open standards like open telemetry

Open telemetry is about how telemetry data is reported, not how it's collected. It's hard to compete with JFR on the breadth and depth of low-overhead, in production telemetry, built into the standard library and the JVM itself.

Re: Java 27

#153

Post by pron »

misiek08 wrote: post #150
pron wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They lack in performance, stability (compatibility), observability (telemetry), productivity, or some combination thereof. They are chosen, of course (especially C#; Go and Rust are far behind), but not as much as Java.

Saying that Go lacks in those is just showing how people are making software those days. It’s just terrifying. As to Rust - we all, hopefully, agree that it’s great language, but not for some startup making websites or Mongo based, boring backends. It’s great for the stable, system level products.

I don't know what compiler and GC quality has to do with how people are making software these days, and I don't think state-of-the-art optimising compilers and GCs are terrifying at all. Go opts for more traditional, simpler algorithms under the assumption that for many purposes they're good enough. That may be so, but sometimes workloads really are very demanding, and you need the best performance.

Re: Java 27

#154

Post by Mawr »

brabel wrote: post #132
pron wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They lack in performance, stability (compatibility), observability (telemetry), productivity, or some combination thereof. They are chosen, of course (especially C#; Go and Rust are far behind), but not as much as Java.

I think you have a biased view. The number of stuff written in Rust in the last couple of years has absolutely exploded. For example, I see a lot of projects now that provide SDKs in Rust but don’t bother with Java. And I say this as someone who still writes most of my code ( or tell my LLM to write) in Java.

Yeah I mean he literally works on Java at Oracle, so may just be a little biased.

Doesn't bother to disclose it of course, because what, you don't check everyone's profile in every discussion to make sure they're not biased? What, you don't just know who every user on this site works for? You dummy you :)

Re: Java 27

#155

Post by pmontra »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #128
gentlewater wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still missing null safety, right? Which means it’s still a hard no for me.

It is really not a big deal nowadays, the problem of the same scale as having index out of bounds error (no language has good defence against this, yet it is not a catastrophe).

That's expected (the index out of bound). You have an array, and maybe it grows, you read a number from input, you don't check it against the size of the array because you want to torture the language, use it to get the element at that index and... I'm sure that there is a surprisingly number of different designs of what it should happen and a number of designed ways to ensure that it doesn't happen. But a runtime error is expected.

Re: Java 27

#156

Post by pron »

Mawr wrote: post #154
brabel wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a biased view. The number of stuff written in Rust in the last couple of years has absolutely exploded. For example, I see a lot of projects now that provide SDKs in Rust but don’t bother with Java. And I say this as someone who still writes most of my code ( or tell my LLM to write) in Java.

Yeah I mean he literally works on Java at Oracle, so may just be a little biased. Doesn't bother to disclose it of course, because what, you don't check everyone's profile in every discussion to make sure they're not biased? What, you don't just know who every user on this site works for? You dummy you :)

It's disclosed right there in my profile (I don't see your professional affiliation disclosed in your comment; or your profile, for that matter). Of course, I, like other runtime and compiler people, joined the Java team because we wanted to work on the most advanced compiler and runtime tech. I perfectly understand people who want to work on smaller, newer, potentially insurgent products, but I took the chance to work on the cutting edge of compiler and runtime engineering, and Java is where it's at these days (I'm not saying it's the only one, but it's a very small club).

Re: Java 27

#157

Post by wavemode »

misiek08 wrote: post #141
wavemode wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nullability annotations + tooling makes this a non-issue in practice.

I’m not sure how long it will take, but please - can we stop saying that annotations like @IHopeThisWontBeNull is a toy for kids and, having so many years of incidents caused by those and having LLMs to write and fix the code, we can rely on language and compiler already?

You're drawing a distinction that doesn't matter in practice. If you encounter a NullPointerException incident then you either didn't annotate your code or you didn't run the tooling. (In fact before even running your CI suite, any serious IDE will tell you immediately that you've mishandled null somewhere.)

I get that some people feel like it ought to be built-in to the language rather than a separate tool... but people's personal feelings are irrelevant to the lived experience of my day-to-day work, where worrying about null is truly a thing of the past.

Re: Java 27

#158

Post by whartung »

pjc50 wrote: post #96
Horffupolde wrote: post #15

Serious question: when should one use Java for greenfield projects in 2026?

JavaFX is fairly high up for "I want to run the same UI on Mac and Windows, and I don't want it to be an Electron web app in a box".

JavaFX is a hidden gem. I really like the programming model with its binding and scene graph and CSS.

It's not as portable as Swing, as it has some platform specific binary components to it. But it works fine on mainstream platforms. For me Swing portability is not worth giving up the FX model.

Just be aware that if you happen to bundle in the Web view component, you're basically adding WebKit to your distribution. I did this with a small project because I wanted to have a "help" screen with Markdown -> HTML. Easy, but "expensive". It simply adds a big chunk (10-20Mb) to your distribution.

(Now I have a very crude Markdown renderer for this task, which is a 100 lines code, and I'm working on a better one -- but I have yet to pull the trigger on the latest FX with its new Rich Text component, which could change everything.)

One hot tip with cross platform FX, however. Embed your fonts. The font suite is not common across the distributions, and the CSS does not honor the font fall back (i.e. if not XXX font, then YYY font), so if the runtime doesn't have your specific font, it collapses to the System font. So, embedding the fonts you use helps a lot with cross platform stability. Plenty of free fonts, I have not had a real problem with this. But it can be one of those O.o moments when you test on other platforms and encounter it the first time.

Re: Java 27

#159

Post by pineappletooth_ »

Still pretty fun that here banks are still using Java 8, where i work they use java 17 and you can still find work requirements asking for java 7 (mostly in goverment entities)

Re: Java 27

#160

Post by akkad33 »

doublepg23 wrote: post #113
Almondsetat wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go and Rust have much worse tooling for enterprise-level collaboration

Do they? It felt like every dev that worked on our Java behemoth at a previous job was elated to switch to Go.

I don't think they do. I work in a maven shop and half of the people don't even know what to do when maven fails inexplicably
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