Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking • Hacker News Board

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#151

Post by hga » Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 10:25 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #150

hga wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Swiss are an obvious exception, although their gun-grabbers are steady tightening things. But I think you're wrong about the path that restrictions would take in the US: the slowly boiling a frog approach won't accomplish the goal, anything too quick, sharp and raw will merely spark the 2nd American Civil War during which "gun violence" will go way up. And most any restriction scheme will increase gun violence, i…

Gun control in the US can start with control of those types of firearms most likely to be used in mass shootings: automatic and semi-automatic weapons with magazines that accommodate large numbers of rounds. The US can do what other countries have done successfully: ban sales, restrict ownership, and offer amnesty/buyback for weapons already in circulation. The US can also mandate safe storage of weapons and ammuniti…

And the fact that "the US" (I assume the Federal government) trying to do this now, before changing the culture (see Holder's 1995 remarks on "brainwashing") would spark a civil war is ... a minor detail?

Unless by "restrict ownership" you mean, say, the same as the current policy for handguns, can't buy unless you're 21? Can be gifted with one, though.

"Lock up your safety" (so called "safe storage") is off the table per the Supreme Court. D.C. insisted on that sort of insanity and got slapped down in Heller, the state must allow guns to be readily available for self-defense.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#152

Post by boboblong » Tue, Dec 18, 2012, 11:05 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #145

boboblong wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a particular gun owner is threatening you, you can take legal action against him or her.

Fantastic, that'll come in handy for the 8,500 people who were shot dead last year.

8500 out of nearly 350 million is 1 in 40000 people. And how many of those 8500 were gangsters or robbers anyway? 50%? 90%? In any event, I'm having a hard time getting worked up over here.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#153

Post by hga » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 1:01 AM UTC

boboblong wrote: post #152

nollidge wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fantastic, that'll come in handy for the 8,500 people who were shot dead last year.

8500 out of nearly 350 million is 1 in 40000 people. And how many of those 8500 were gangsters or robbers anyway? 50%? 90%? In any event, I'm having a hard time getting worked up over here.

The available data that I know of, which is sparse and big city in origin, says a large majority of murder victims are indeed criminals. That's in part where the bogus "gun you own may kill someone you know" statistics come from, e.g. a gang member killing one from another gang knows the victim, it's not a "stranger" murder.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#154

Post by 13rules » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 6:01 AM UTC

rickmb wrote: post #58

The scale of the problem isn't in itself an argument for doing or not doing something about. The emotional impact is most definitely an important factor, and not something that can simply be argued away with numbers. Most people don't live in fear of cancer or lightning strikes, unless they find themselves in the middle of an asbestos filled building or right underneath a lightning storm. The knowledge however that s…

"It's about not having to live in fear."

Is this something that is even attainable by exterior forces? I don't just mean as it relates to gun-crimes, but anything. Everyone has fears — from fear of failure to fear of heights. They are personal and, as such, are yours to conquer personally.

Laws do not necessarily automatically assuage your fears — many people, as you point out, have irrational fears based on emotion rather than in fact / statistic probability.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#155

Post by 13rules » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 6:02 AM UTC

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

"I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions."

I think regardless of your position we can all agree on this.

It would be useful if we could all see that we really are on the same side of this — everyone wants to prevent another tragedy like this. We just have very different beliefs about how best to go about that.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#156

Post by RyanMcGreal » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #151

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun control in the US can start with control of those types of firearms most likely to be used in mass shootings: automatic and semi-automatic weapons with magazines that accommodate large numbers of rounds. The US can do what other countries have done successfully: ban sales, restrict ownership, and offer amnesty/buyback for weapons already in circulation. The US can also mandate safe storage of weapons and ammuniti…

And the fact that "the US" (I assume the Federal government) trying to do this now , before changing the culture (see Holder's 1995 remarks on "brainwashing") would spark a civil war is ... a minor detail? Unless by "restrict ownership" you mean, say, the same as the current policy for handguns, can't buy unless you're 21? Can be gifted with one, though. "Lock up your safety" (so called "safe storage") is off the tab…

I don't think a real commitment to gun control would spark a civil war. So far, the paranoid right-wing tough talk has not coalesced into anything like a real movement, let alone a rebellion, despite the widespread belief among a certain segment of Americans that the president is a radical Muslim, foreign-born Manchurian candidate determined to turn American by stealth into a socialist dictatorship.

Then again, I might be wrong about the civil war bit. It's possible that America is simply culturally incapable of regulating its firearms in a safe, responsible way, and that a death-by-firearms rate several orders of magnitude higher than the rest of the industrialized world is an intractable side-effect.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#157

Post by hga » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 7:50 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #156

hga wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the fact that "the US" (I assume the Federal government) trying to do this now , before changing the culture (see Holder's 1995 remarks on "brainwashing") would spark a civil war is ... a minor detail? Unless by "restrict ownership" you mean, say, the same as the current policy for handguns, can't buy unless you're 21? Can be gifted with one, though. "Lock up your safety" (so called "safe storage") is off the tab…

I don't think a real commitment to gun control would spark a civil war. So far, the paranoid right-wing tough talk has not coalesced into anything like a real movement, let alone a rebellion, despite the widespread belief among a certain segment of Americans that the president is a radical Muslim, foreign-born Manchurian candidate determined to turn American by stealth into a socialist dictatorship. Then again, I mig…

"Then again, I might be wrong about the civil war bit."

Given that, if you live in the US, it's a "you bet your life" proposition, you'd best be very careful before possibly sparking one, no matter how low a probability you think it is from people you've shown yourself to know nothing about. And you're definitely limited in your imagination, we've watched recent history and know "real movements" as such aren't an option (at least in the beginning). Fortunately they're not needed.

You would also do well to remember a couple of quotes misattributed to Imperial Japanese Navy Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku, the architect of their attack on Pearl Harbor:

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#158

Post by hga » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 7:57 PM UTC

13rules wrote: post #155

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

"I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions." I think regardless of your position we can all agree on this. It would be useful if we could all see that we really are on the same side of this — everyone wants to prevent another tragedy like this. We just have very different beliefs abou…

"everyone wants to prevent another tragedy like this"

If that were true, wouldn't we'd only be seeing gun control proposals that directly flow from this event, not all the "usual suspects" that are also being proposed again? E.g. the "gun show loophole", which has not been implicated in any of these events to my knowledge. But it turns out gun shows are a vital part of the US gun culture and shutting them down, as the fine print of these proposals would do, would do it grave damage.

We're seeing a whole lot of what some people define as insanity, doing (recommending) the same thing over and over again, regardless of results. That doesn't strike me as a response to this event, but opportunism in using it.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#159

Post by 13rules » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 9:13 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #158

13rules wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions." I think regardless of your position we can all agree on this. It would be useful if we could all see that we really are on the same side of this — everyone wants to prevent another tragedy like this. We just have very different beliefs abou…

" everyone wants to prevent another tragedy like this " If that were true, wouldn't we'd only be seeing gun control proposals that directly flow from this event, not all the "usual suspects" that are also being proposed again? E.g. the "gun show loophole", which has not been implicated in any of these events to my knowledge. But it turns out gun shows are a vital part of the US gun culture and shutting them down, as…

I'm with you — and probably agree with your political views 100% if I had to guess. I think that most of those people do want to prevent these tragedies — I think that everyone does. I do not agree with their methods (as misguided as they may be), but that doesn't discount their motivation.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#160

Post by hga » Wed, Dec 19, 2012, 11:36 PM UTC

13rules wrote: post #159

hga wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" everyone wants to prevent another tragedy like this " If that were true, wouldn't we'd only be seeing gun control proposals that directly flow from this event, not all the "usual suspects" that are also being proposed again? E.g. the "gun show loophole", which has not been implicated in any of these events to my knowledge. But it turns out gun shows are a vital part of the US gun culture and shutting them down, as…

I'm with you — and probably agree with your political views 100% if I had to guess. I think that most of those people do want to prevent these tragedies — I think that everyone does. I do not agree with their methods (as misguided as they may be), but that doesn't discount their motivation.

"I think that most of those people do want to prevent these tragedies...."

Well of course. But wanting that is not exactly out of the mainstream, is it? Who doesn't, besides the fantasies of NRA members and/or gun owners that too many gun grabbers hold in their minds?