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AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

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Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can 100% and totally be immune to it

Which type of person is immune to it and where do they live?

Just don't be invested in AI stocks, heavily leveraged in the stock market and about to retire, or work at a place built on such?

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I get zero direct and indirect stock market exposure, no electricity price impact, no RAM or GPU price impact, etc? I'd love to live in a world where AI firms bidding these things up doesn't affect me but I'm really struggling to understand how they aren't impacting the market.

be poor (minus electricity, I guess)

People who are poor still have to participate in the economy. When you have a trillion dollar bet not pan out, somehow your minimum wage job no matter what it is, will be impacted because that’s what a recession does.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no financial stake in AI-related companies so zero exposure to any popular index? Even “ex-US” is tsmc and sk-hynix in a trenchcoat. I think it was BHP exclaiming that theyre an AI play because they cover 85% of the raw materials in DC build outs. In the current mania “no financial stake in AI-related” is a very bold claim.

You can just not have investments, which is more common than you think. Being young, lots of people I know don't even have enough of a cushion to invest, and others want to avoid all risk (especially in the current market) and park their money in a high-interest savings account. Of course, this doesn't insulate you from second- or third-order effects, but it does remove the possibility of your money being immediately…

As long as you participate in the economy, a recession will get you. Even if you’re poor, homeless and unemployed, people’s generosity towards you in a recession goes down.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#154

Raise your hand if you wouldn't pay $60/mo for SOTA LLM access/couldn't get $60 of value out of it monthly.

I currently pay for $20/m ChatGPT/Claude subscription. I currently put about $20-30/m into my OpenRouter account.

I find this to be a pretty good split for all my side projects. A real developer wouldn't find this sufficient I would imagine but with the recent discounts on ChatGPT 5.6 Luma and Deepseek Flash V4 0731, I tend to have plenty of left off.

I might be an odd case, tech stuff is my hobby so I enjoy playing with these tools. I do not have any media subscriptions (no Netflix, Amazon, etc) but 20-50$ a month isn't bank breaking.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire left wing of the political spectrum saw this coming (except social democrats; whom I don’t consider left wing). And if you were shorting stocks to make money of off this, you probably were not left wing. Additionally, left wing economists get plenty of ridicule from main stream capitalists no matter what they say, so there really is no reputation to either earn nor to keep.

Do they see coming the predictable failure-modes of left-wing economies, though? History seems to suggest not. Also, did "the entire left-wing" see specifically a debt crisis through bad assumptions of creditworthy mortgage securities coming, or they just saw "capitalism" as a failure and here is a specific case, aren't we so prescient. That's not a prediction.

Left wing economists saw the former. Left wing as a whole saw the latter.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not breaking anything to me. I deliberately phrased it as "directly immune" because I have no financial stake in AI-related companies. Obviously a debt-bomb of any type imploding reverberates across the economy.

> I have no financial stake in AI-related companies so zero exposure to any popular index? Even “ex-US” is tsmc and sk-hynix in a trenchcoat. I think it was BHP exclaiming that theyre an AI play because they cover 85% of the raw materials in DC build outs. In the current mania “no financial stake in AI-related” is a very bold claim.

My point wasn't that I am a hunter gatherer, it's that I didn't have a vested financial motivation to cheer for or be against AI

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#157
post #61

It completely unclear where this 1.65T is going to come from to pay the bill. Revenue from people buying AI doesn’t even come close to covering it, even with crazy aggressive assumptions about the cashflow that could be generated from that. The Wall St vs Silicon Valley showdown that’s setting up here looks like it will be quite epic. If last week was any preview, get your popcorn ready.

From the lender's standpoint they can repossess the data center.

It's not like their collateral is a bunch of NFTs.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#158

As a bystander directly immune to the fortunes of AI going up or down, it does feel like there are a lot more people thinking this is inning 9 of the LLM story than there are people thinking it's inning 3. Which makes it tempting to believe it's probably closer to inning 3.

Right - black swans are by definition things that the majority didn't see coming. Ever since the 2008 housing crisis, people have been predicting the next bubble-burst/black-swan event. The one that really crushed the markets was the one almost body saw coming: Covid-19.

A lot of swans live here in the Australian Capital Territory. They seem to like our lakes. I have only ever seen black ones.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#159
post #130

Genuine question: these companies had double-digit billions of free cash flow per quarter, about $0.3T a year aggregate, before the AI boom started and they began splurging on CapEx; is the $1.65T number that bad in that context? Let's assume the extreme worst case scenario where the bubble pops so comprehensively that the entire AI business is written off, without any change to the debt owed, and these companies ret…

There’s plenty of second order effects. What would this do to the insurance or pension firms who hold this debt? The banks who hold this debt? Also a lot of this debt is possibly held by smaller players who would get wiped out.

The GFC “proper” was the dramatic crash in the liquidity of credit markets, not strictly a corollary of the losses on property and mortgage-backed securities.

Re: AI's debt binge can't last, hidden borrowing reaches $1.65T

#160
post #157
post #61

It completely unclear where this 1.65T is going to come from to pay the bill. Revenue from people buying AI doesn’t even come close to covering it, even with crazy aggressive assumptions about the cashflow that could be generated from that. The Wall St vs Silicon Valley showdown that’s setting up here looks like it will be quite epic. If last week was any preview, get your popcorn ready.

From the lender's standpoint they can repossess the data center. It's not like their collateral is a bunch of NFTs.

Do the lenders actually have the right to that collateral? What are the details in these private SPV deals?

And is it collateral if it has yet to be built?

(I'm asking because I want to correct my own ignorance.)

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