I doubt they did any distillation as Hinton defined it (requiring logit access). They most likely ran a bunch of prompts/conversations and captured the results. Those conversations already missed thinking tokens, replaced by some confusing quasi-summaries. Then they took those and ran basic SFT or maybe DPO if they had competing responses. As there is no copyright on the output of AI, I am not sure where is the "covert industrial distillation" part of the problem.
“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
151–160 of 742 posts
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#152Good. If Fable is really so smart, it wouldn't let itself be distilled.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#153Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…
Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…
> Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done.
Ah yes, I remember when Anthropic crawlers abided by the TOS of the websites they slurped up.
All your other points are downstream from this, which makes them pretty tenuous. Labs don't think that ToS or other explicit wishes of content providers apply to them, but they expect everyone else to abide by theirs.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#154So what? I want the best model at the cheapest price. You guys illegally trained on books, movies, audiobook etc.. Why should we care?
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#155Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…
Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…
All of the models stole the entirety of written knowledge on the internet to train. They are being sued for the few cases where we have some proof of what they did because of some whistleblowers, all the rest will just go unpunished. They breached Github TOS, robot.txt's, copyright, patents every form of IP protection under the sun from a billion sources. It's just ridiculous for the thieves to cry about someone else stealing from them.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…
> Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. Ah yes, I remember when Anthropic crawlers abided by the TOS of the websites they slurped up. All your other points are downstream from this, which makes them pretty tenuous. Labs don't think that ToS or other explicit wishes of content providers apply to them, but they expect everyone else to abide by theirs.
To be clear, I think theft is also bad when Anthropic does it.
US and CA law really don't care that Anthropic violated IP law elsewhere.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#157As with many others among these threads I don't see how the timing works out for K3 to have trained on distilled Fable usage. There should be at least a tacit academic acknowledgment of Kimi's own design efforts. Distillation itself, however, is still clearly valuable - else competitors wouldn't pay so much to their rival on distillation campaigns or try to circumvent anti-distillation defenses. As for the morality o…
"It is already understood that you own the output."
I don't think it's settled that anybody owns the output. There seems to be some question whether LLM output can be copyrighted (and there should be).
I'd rather it weren't possible, actually. I think it's better for humanity if we acknowledge that what was legitimately ingested into these models is our collective commons (and what was illegitimately ingested into these models also shouldn't exclusively profit the people who illegitimately did so). I don't know how that squares with the AI industry recovering its trillion dollars in investment, but I reckon they should have thought of that before.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
And I believe a socialist revolution in international solidarity of the working classes against our exploiters the capitalist owning class would address both problems as well (and more), but in the meantime I’ll be happy whenever I spot poetic justice in the wild.
I think we have some historical precedents for this that went less well than you might hope.
I am not aware of any revolutions where an international solidarity of the working classes overthrew their capitalist exploiters. I am aware of a couple of national solidarity movements which overthrew a monarchy (France; Russia) and a dictatorship (Cuba), but no international ones.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#159For code can't they distill from public GitHub commits? If they could figure out who used Mythos/Fable assitance in the commits.
I think they're distilling "reasoning", not merely code. There's plenty of human generated code. What they're trying to extract is the process by which really large models "think" their way through complicated problems. That's what all the "traces" datasets on HuggingFace are about.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#160Who cares. Anthropic distilled the entire internet, and then a good bit more beyond that.