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My falling-out with the rationalist community

lcamtuf.substack.com

151–160 of 175 posts

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#151
post #4

> Timecube was an incoherent stream-of-consciousness website filled with bizarre cosmological claims. Was? Timecube.net will outlive any and all faddy Silicon Valley cults.

OP's take seems to be unfairly critical. I wasn't at the MIT or Georgia Tech lectures (Gene Ray spoke once at each) but it sounds like the audience was pretty respectful, all things considered. He was given uninterrupted time to explain his ideas, then question and answer. No shouting. Ray didn't convince anyone. No surprise. But he apparently wrote to someone "They treated me like Einstein" so it can't have been too…

I'm not even sure it was the rationalists, just ordinary MIT/Georgia Tech students. But my understanding (I wasn't there obviously) is like you say that Gene Ray was not invited to speak so he could be easily humiliated by people larping the superior intellects, but instead treated with curiosity and respect even if it was clear like you say that his ideas were a little bit mad. Tbh I think people were just fascinated to find someone with such outlandish ideas who was so entirely caught up with their own creation.

So I think the author is maybe overreacting in that one. The rest, what he says about "rationalists" going after flat earthers and intelligent designers etc with a list of logical fallacies at hand, for sport, that's very true.

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#152
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a rationalist and I don't know who these people are. As far as I can tell they're a bunch of online weirdos who don't matter. But as for that statement, "humanity will be far far better off if they're subjected to the values of effective altruists," that depends on the values in question, which haven't been explained in this thread. But there is definitely a set of values that exists that humanity would be be…

There might ( might , see later) be a set of values, but there definitely isn't anyone or anything that, given dictatorial powers, can be trusted in applying such values forever fairly without abusing or misusing their power. I'm far from sure that even the rationalists' god-like AI could play that role, even in the extremely unlikely hypothesis that it will materialize at some point. Not to mention that the best set…

Well you're arguing that dictatorship must be perfect ("applying such values forever fairly without abusing") to be better than democracy. It doesn't need to be infallibly perfect, it just needs to be better than democracy, which is also not perfect.

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#153
post #4

> Timecube was an incoherent stream-of-consciousness website filled with bizarre cosmological claims. Was? Timecube.net will outlive any and all faddy Silicon Valley cults.

The original timecube.com died (domain registration expiration) in 2015 (shortly after its creator) and timecube.net is a reboot from 2023 (and I can find nothing tying it to the estate or anything like that).

See? Immortality through memes!

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#154
post #5

This kind of furore happens more than you would think amongst nominatively deterministic rationalist groups. Randi broke with people and re-formed, Dawkins has unbelievably heated arguments over frankly nothing . Maybe some of it is informed by the overlap with academia. Science has the aphorism "physics advances one funeral at a time" and certainly being on the outer has affected careers. Fred Hoyle was too argument…

I was always amused that the rationalists threw themselves behind a professional trickster with absolutely no scientific credentials. And Dawkins never had much of a research career. My problem with the "skeptics" was that the paranormal is an easy target and politically it's punching down. There are plenty of other irrationalities to consider - like how advertising and propaganda work, how cults and religions actual…

> I was always amused that the rationalists threw themselves behind a professional trickster with absolutely no scientific credentials.

Engaging with someone's ideas isn't the same thing as throwing yourself behind that person. There are a number of public writers associated with rationalism (Eliezer Yudkowsky and Scott Alexander probably being the most famous), but the social scene isn't defined by following them as leaders or thinking their ideas are correct.

> My problem with the "skeptics" was that the paranormal is an easy target and politically it's punching down.

The skeptics didn't think the paranormal was an easy target they were punching down at, they thought it was a corrosive, poltically-powerful, and immoral force in US poltics that was leading towards bad ends. Also what you call the paranormal they call "institutional Christianity in US poltics" - even that choice of words has poltical valence.

> There are plenty of other irrationalities to consider - like how advertising and propaganda work, how cults and religions actually operate beyond "irrational bad", and how trad econ believes many things that are questionable at best - but the skeptics never dared go anywhere near those.

I think this is you personally simply having a somewhat different set of poltical concerns than the skeptics did (in part because time has passed since their heyday, and the landscape of American poltics has shifted some), and wanting them to care about exactly what you are about and not about what they cared about, without wanting to claim that their object-level concerns were necessarily wrong.

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#155
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. I agree that there are major limitations to purely logical arguments. This is why unlike the rationists of the 17th century, modern "rationalists" predominately focus on empiricism (ironic i know). They are practically obsessed with Bayesian reasoning and probability of truth. This has the knock on effect of interest in prediction markets. Is your impression otherwise?

> They are practically obsessed with Bayesian reasoning and probability of truth. Which is still math, not the real world. Bayesian reasoning is useful, but it's not a drop-in replacement for your brain. "Rationalists" often seem to talk as though they think it is--just follow this recipe and your thinking will automatically give the right answer. And anyone who tries to talk about limitations of this is obviously a…

Im genuinely curious how you are differentiating "using your brain". What does that look like for the real world?

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#156
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are practically obsessed with Bayesian reasoning and probability of truth. Which is still math, not the real world. Bayesian reasoning is useful, but it's not a drop-in replacement for your brain. "Rationalists" often seem to talk as though they think it is--just follow this recipe and your thinking will automatically give the right answer. And anyone who tries to talk about limitations of this is obviously a…

Im genuinely curious how you are differentiating "using your brain". What does that look like for the real world?

> Im genuinely curious how you are differentiating "using your brain".

I just mean that your brain can do lots of other things besides Bayesian reasoning, and most of them can't be reduced to Bayesian reasoning.

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#157
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. The entire section starting with "Of course, despite the emphasis on reason — and the subtle implication that the out-group is more wrong — the rationalist community is susceptible to the same biases as anyone else" talks about the failure of the rationalist community to be any better than any other group. Then this describes the actual break: > By that time, my relationship with the skeptic community was a…

> In other words, they had been dissatisfied with the whole rationalist way of arguing for a while; and this was the point where they finally felt like "This is actually just a game of words; and it's a dumb one I don't want to play any more." That would make sense, except for the first paragraph mentioning that the Bankman-Fried thing and the Zizian murder thing didn't prompt them to write it. Both were long _after_…

My interpretation was that the Damore thing was the threshold where the author finally stopped identifying as a "rationalist". After that point, they considered several times writing a post describing that event. The first time they thought about writing it was "in the mid-2010s", which would like up with the Damore incident. Observing people who have given up Christianity, there's almost always a time gap between the time they stop identifying / participating with Christianity and the time they discuss it publicly.

You're right, there's nothing to indicate why they are writing now, when they actively resisted writing after SBF or the Zizians. Perhaps part of them felt like writing in response to those things would be unfair; perhaps part of them knew they weren't ready, and now they are.

Or maybe they know about some new scandal that's going to come to light in the next few months!

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#158
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im genuinely curious how you are differentiating "using your brain". What does that look like for the real world?

> Im genuinely curious how you are differentiating "using your brain". I just mean that your brain can do lots of other things besides Bayesian reasoning, and most of them can't be reduced to Bayesian reasoning.

Like what are you thinking of that is so different? Can you give an example?

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#159
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Im genuinely curious how you are differentiating "using your brain". I just mean that your brain can do lots of other things besides Bayesian reasoning, and most of them can't be reduced to Bayesian reasoning.

Like what are you thinking of that is so different? Can you give an example?

Inventing the hypotheses and the model in the first place. Bayesian inference updates probabilities over hypotheses already admitted by a model. If reality requires a structure that the model doesn't assign a prior probability to, such as an omitted variable, mechanism, or failure mode, ordinary Bayesian updating cannot recover it, no matter how much data is observed.

For example:

A forecasting model estimates restaurant demand from years of bookings. Then a major concert is announced next door. A local manager immediately expects a packed evening, while the model predicts an ordinary Tuesday because it has never encountered that situation, and was not prepared for it. To do so would have not been reasonable based on the data available to begin with, after all.

So you can have someone opine about how well some argument is supported through Bayesian inference, and how another isn't, but that's only going to keep them honest in a limited sense. They can still miss the bigger picture by e.g. simply not knowing about it, and not knowing to check for it. If you don't either, they done misled you.

This failure mode is identifiable without having to reason about probability theory as well by the way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48986444

If you're still unconvinced:

- why would BAND have a concert here? no concerts in this area, ever

- doesn't BAND have ties to this place? no sufficient evidence in the way of that

- BAND lead singer has hung out here once and liked THING, decided to have a concert here for sure one day on a whim

Individually, these have low local attributing info available, so you'd never be able to justify the inference. But not being able to justify the inference didn't make the claims wrong, just unfounded. Those are not the same thing. And so chasing probabilities like this, while maximizes how much your position is defensible, also boxes you in. You'll be reasonable in why you thought what you did, but that won't make you necessarily right, despite the suggestions otherwise.

Re: My falling-out with the rationalist community

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment has been talking about exactly people who have been turning this into an identity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalist_community If this doesn't apply to you, great, but then we're talking past each other.

And my point is that according to the works that supposedly motivate them, they are explicitly not supposed to do that; furthermore, I'm not actually convinced that they are doing it on anything like the scale that critics allege. (And no, forming a "community" does not make for an identity . I don't think of myself as a "HN user" and I would certainly never introduce myself that way offline. Similarly for Stack Over…

I'd argue it's hard to have a community without something in common, so identity formation is kind of unavoidable (as there is an identifier), even if people resist it.

In some cases, that point of commonality is just the venue (like your HN example). Not the case for this.

That said, I do appreciate the distinction and you may very well be right. Like certainly, one can appreciate logical thinking and quality argumentation without adopting any kind of group identity.

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