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Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

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Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#151

Post by chris_wot »

traes wrote: post #143
chris_wot wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you use it in production?

From Cambridge dictionary: obscure (adjective) not known to many people: - an obscure island in the Pacific - an obscure 12th-century mystic Why does its use in production matter? Perhaps the syntax itself is obscure, but we're not discussing syntax but general awareness. Anyway, the most common "real" use of brainfuck is to prove Turing completeness of other things by finding a way to compile them into brainfuck.

If you quote the dictionary to win an argument, quote it in full. There are two definitions of obscure in the Cambridge dictionary. The other is:

obscure (adjective)

not clear and difficult to understand or see:

- Official policy has changed, for reasons that remain obscure.

- His answers were obscure and confusing.

- "the syntax itself is obscure"

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#153

Post by baranul »

dibujaron wrote: post #5

This article makes Odin sound extremely well-known. I've never heard of it before, and I feel like I keep up with programming topics pretty diligently. Admittedly I don't work at the systems programming layer, but I've definitely heard plenty about Rust and c++ topics. Curious if others feel similarly, or maybe I just happened to miss it?

You never hearing about Odin, is an example of why its article was rejected by Wikipedia, because they failed at providing reputable references. The languages that you likely know of, often are corporate backed, with large marketing budgets and backdoor deals to help saturate traditional and social media.

Newer languages, not of corporate origins, usually struggle to achieve public awareness or are purposefully choked out by negative propaganda and negative marketing tactics being unleashed against them. To achieve enough public awareness and momentum, they often need a certain level of luck, where a number of factors fall their way.

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#154

Post by raphlinus »

uecker wrote: post #128
bawolff wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone considers rust a c competitor. Its literally replacing c in the linux kernel.

I wonder whether the "replacing c in the linux kernel" is not more wishful thinking by Rust enthusiasts. As of know it has less than 1% and less than bash.

Greg Kroah-Hartman has given a talk entitled "Untrusted data in Linux — How Rust is going to save us"[1] which I think is fairly optimistic about the idea that Rust will have an increasingly large role in the kernel. The total number of lines of code is small today but that will change.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzmj7K0FNRY

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#156

Post by baranul »

Barrin92 wrote: post #122
jibal wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should be persuasive is a simple logical inference from the statements made to my conclusion. From the article: > If you are terminally online on programming circles, you most likely have heard of Odin, it's so obvious that I don't feel like I have to make a case at all. It has been covered by the streamer Primeagen and it's used commercially by JangaFX, that's pretty notable to me. If you are active in discussi…

No it's an indication that notoriety in Discord servers isn't a basis for relevance in an encyclopedia. Which is a good choice. A streamer mentioned a language? Wikipedia isn't Twitter. As a reader thank god not everything that has grabbed the attention of social media gets an article.

Exactly. Because a person hangs out in certain social media circles or bubbles, doesn't mean that information from those places are general public knowledge or meets the standards that Wikipedia asks for.

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#157

Post by halperter »

questiona wrote: post #119
Morromist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's amazing that anybody creates Wikpedia articles at all" Yeh. This is why I stopped editing wikipedia very often. They are maniacal about deleting things that I consider noteworthy but others don't. I still love wikipedia and think its the best website on the internet, but this is probably its biggest flaw.

[flagged]

Did you create an account _just_ so you could comment? lol.

Anyways, footnotes seem to work or are in-text. Links work as well so IDK the problem?

Then you talk about the claim of notability? Wikipedia's terms for notability are different than just a lot of people using the product. It's not the best, and should be reworked, but you're confusing wiki policies for general terms.

Then, we summarize that the article, author, and wikipedia are trash. Definitely one of the non-sequiturs of all time, lol. You don't even have an issue that the article is deleted, showing that you have no knowledge or at the very least don't care about adding substance to the discussion.

To summarize:

Please articulate your thoughts in a understandable, neutral manner that adds to the discourse.

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#158

Post by Barrin92 »

skotobaza wrote: post #148
Barrin92 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's an indication that notoriety in Discord servers isn't a basis for relevance in an encyclopedia. Which is a good choice. A streamer mentioned a language? Wikipedia isn't Twitter. As a reader thank god not everything that has grabbed the attention of social media gets an article.

Why wouldn't you want to have an article about a programming language that is currently used in production by someone? Are there any downsides to this?

what I want doesn't matter for an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias rely on secondary and not primary sources because they must be authoritative. The CEO of Kelloggs doesn't get to write the wikipedia article for kelloggs even if millions of people eat his cornflakes.

If a programming language is widely used in production then sourcing an article with secondary sources ought to be trivial. But the appropriate content for primary information and original research for a language.. is the language's website.

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#159

Post by skotobaza »

The article was alright (with a weird tangent about gingers at the beginning), but then quickly devolved into personal attacks towards Odin's developer and Casey Muratori. Why? Just because they both wrote something on Twitter?

And then I read this:

> Steering a language and its context will naturally reflect the author's world view

> There are two ways one can "figure out a person" who rarely states their beliefs explicitly, specifically a public figure:

> 2. See who they follow on Twitter

What do someone's beliefs have to do with the development of a programming language? Or with its appearance on Wikipedia? Is this a normal world view?

Re: Odin, Wikipedia and engagement farming

#160

Post by halperter »

chris_wot wrote: post #151
traes wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Cambridge dictionary: obscure (adjective) not known to many people: - an obscure island in the Pacific - an obscure 12th-century mystic Why does its use in production matter? Perhaps the syntax itself is obscure, but we're not discussing syntax but general awareness. Anyway, the most common "real" use of brainfuck is to prove Turing completeness of other things by finding a way to compile them into brainfuck.

If you quote the dictionary to win an argument, quote it in full. There are two definitions of obscure in the Cambridge dictionary. The other is: obscure (adjective) not clear and difficult to understand or see: - Official policy has changed, for reasons that remain obscure. - His answers were obscure and confusing. - "the syntax itself is obscure"

Pretty sure caveat intended for the former definition.
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