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Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

arstechnica.com

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Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#151

Post by warumdarum »

Balgair wrote: post #149
jqpabc123 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And stupidity is intelligence. Democracy dies when stupid people become convinced that they know best and have all the answers.

Wait no? Democracy works exactly because of this? We just poll all the people, including the dumb ones, and then average out the answers. The dumbs all cancel out in the end. (Yes, of course , I know it is a lot more complex than this) The whole point of democracy is that we don't know what is the dumb or smart answer so we have these complex functions and dances to squeeze out the best one we can think of at the tim…

We also have politicsl organs to keep the powerfull busy schemeing so they can not destroy or deprecate the organs.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#152

Post by malcolmgreaves »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #116
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine, and would have been raging if the government hadn't rushed it out. All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life. 2 million dead Americans later and people still complain that th…

> If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine, and would have been raging if the government hadn't rushed it out. All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life. I think you are largely right, but I dont think they have any…

> I dont think they have any obligation to save anyone else's life.

That’s the problem with republicans. They reject basic tenets of a society.

You do have a responsibility to do the absolute minimum to not harm other people.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#153

Post by triceratops »

DaSHacka wrote: post #42
hammock wrote: post #4

This administration might be the exception, but it is actually normal for the US military to be getting more vaccines than average, even when their effectiveness is suspect (some past flu vaccines) or side effects are moderate to severe (e.g. anthrax vaccines). Readiness - a matter of national security - tends to trump most concerns that, in civilian populations, might warrant greater choice and debate.

You'd think other aspects of health, like general fitness and mental well-being would be factored in too, but strangely, the only requirement they seemed to take a hard stance on previously was over-vaccination. Almost like it was politically-motivated and it's not truthfully a "matter of national security"

If they could make every soldier super jacked, buff, zen masters with just an annual injection I guarantee you they would order that too.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#154

Post by pchangr »

Balgair wrote: post #149
jqpabc123 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And stupidity is intelligence. Democracy dies when stupid people become convinced that they know best and have all the answers.

Wait no? Democracy works exactly because of this? We just poll all the people, including the dumb ones, and then average out the answers. The dumbs all cancel out in the end. (Yes, of course , I know it is a lot more complex than this) The whole point of democracy is that we don't know what is the dumb or smart answer so we have these complex functions and dances to squeeze out the best one we can think of at the tim…

I remember a professor once told us “democracy might not be the best kind of government. It’s just the best we have found to organize a peaceful power transition”. And .. to this date .. I agree .. it’s not about making the best decision.. it just allows us to come to a decision on a seemingly fair process.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#155

Post by arrosenberg »

Balgair wrote: post #149
jqpabc123 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And stupidity is intelligence. Democracy dies when stupid people become convinced that they know best and have all the answers.

Wait no? Democracy works exactly because of this? We just poll all the people, including the dumb ones, and then average out the answers. The dumbs all cancel out in the end. (Yes, of course , I know it is a lot more complex than this) The whole point of democracy is that we don't know what is the dumb or smart answer so we have these complex functions and dances to squeeze out the best one we can think of at the tim…

The point of democracy is consent of the governed. We very much do know the dumb or smart answer as to whether or not to vaccine the military.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#156

Post by buu700 »

Arodex wrote: post #122
buu700 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What changed 50 years ago is the US government decided saturated fats were bad and complex carbohydrates were good, and began setting policy to rebuild the food supply and culture around that worldview. We're now living in the result of that population-wide experiment.

Nothing has changed. Fat and sugar are appetizing, always have. The free market gave it to all of you by the truckload at the lowest price. Try to assume your choices instead of blaming "the US government" and telling yourself fairytales.

No, it was literally government policy. The free market didn't give us the McGovern committee or the following half-century of subsidies, regulations, and guidelines to promote low-fat diets.

Markets don't exist in a vacuum. In this case, it was substantially shaped by state-driven incentives. If nothing had changed, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's a historical fact that something did change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#/....

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#157

Post by jfengel »

Balgair wrote: post #149
jqpabc123 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And stupidity is intelligence. Democracy dies when stupid people become convinced that they know best and have all the answers.

Wait no? Democracy works exactly because of this? We just poll all the people, including the dumb ones, and then average out the answers. The dumbs all cancel out in the end. (Yes, of course , I know it is a lot more complex than this) The whole point of democracy is that we don't know what is the dumb or smart answer so we have these complex functions and dances to squeeze out the best one we can think of at the tim…

We don't poll all of the people. We exclude everybody below 18, for example. We exclude a lot of people with criminal records. We use a multi-stage representative democracy, such that large numbers of voters basically don't count at all. (And that's before we go out of our way to draw districts specifically to exclude people).

To the degree that democracy works, it works as you say. But we systematically fail to include all of the people, so the dumbs often don't cancel out.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#158

Post by jfengel »

pchangr wrote: post #154
Balgair wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait no? Democracy works exactly because of this? We just poll all the people, including the dumb ones, and then average out the answers. The dumbs all cancel out in the end. (Yes, of course , I know it is a lot more complex than this) The whole point of democracy is that we don't know what is the dumb or smart answer so we have these complex functions and dances to squeeze out the best one we can think of at the tim…

I remember a professor once told us “democracy might not be the best kind of government. It’s just the best we have found to organize a peaceful power transition”. And .. to this date .. I agree .. it’s not about making the best decision.. it just allows us to come to a decision on a seemingly fair process.

But it doesn't do that. It allows a majority to do whatever it wants, including redefine the rules to guarantee its permanent majority.

Or the rules are written to avoid that, in which case the power rests with the minority who is happiest with the status quo.

It works only if most people don't want to push their advantages to the limits. But if men were angels, there would be no need of laws. The system will always fall prey to whoever is most willing to push their advantage as far as it will go.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#159

Post by jlebar »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #136
jlebar wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent poster is saying that even though the effect on an individual is low relative to other vaccines, the effect of a whole group taking the vaccine is actually very high . This the opposite of your understanding. The benefit to the individuals in a group from the whole group taking the vaccine is actually much larger than the benefit to an individual in the group of taking the vaccine solo. You can read more about…

Are you sure? Your link ends with this: > Combined with the brutal arithmetic at higher R0R_0 R0 , this is a large part of why flu vaccination programs are generally justified on individual protection against illness and severe outcomes rather than on a realistic expectation of achieving herd immunity and stopping circulation. On the one hand, in a military setting you can feasibly achieve 100% compliance. But if you…

I mean, I would say that preventing 40% of disease (depending on what you're measuring, etc etc) is not marginal. I guess I'd turn it around and ask, if 40% is marginal, what number would not be marginal, and why do you draw the line there?

(For me, "marginal" would mean that the costs were roughly equal to the benefits. I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that saving the lives of even just 1% of the people who would normally die from the flu -- between 10k and 50k people a year -- is roughly equivalent to the cost of giving out flu shots. I suppose you could argue that the benefit is marginal to individuals who have a low probability of dying from the flu, and marginal to a society which has relatively low vaccination rates overall.)

The other thing is that, according to the Claude data here, the vaccine is actually relatively effective at preventing the transmission of some flu variants, 50% effective against influenza B! If so, there would be a clear group benefit to that, you only need (1 - 1/1.3) / 0.5 = 46% of people to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity to that strain.

Re: Military branches restore flu shot requirement after virus swept through base

#160

Post by Terr_ »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #116
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine, and would have been raging if the government hadn't rushed it out. All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life. 2 million dead Americans later and people still complain that th…

> If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine, and would have been raging if the government hadn't rushed it out. All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life. I think you are largely right, but I dont think they have any…

> I dont think they have any obligation to save anyone else's life.

I reject this framing, the person here is not a passive observer in the first place, they are a participant with obligations.

Consider a pet dog: You aren't merely responsible if it bites someone after-the-fact, you also have a proactive obligation for a reasonable level of control and monitoring, so that your erratic property doesn't harm another person in the first place. That might mean blocking off where it can go with doors and fences, a muzzle, a leash in public, certified obedience training, etc.

Your body is like that dog: Both are biological property which can erratically move to harm others without your permission. In this case, the risk is it will start spewing tiny bioweapons at other people. As the owner, you again have some obligation to exert reasonable control and supervision over your property, whether that's quarantine, vaccines, masks, home tests, etc.

____

On the heels of the "if Ebola" thought-experiment, let's try another: Imagine we somehow had forensic knowledge of how every individual SARS-COV-2 victim got sick and exactly how plus a frictionless legal system for lawsuits to recover damages from lost-work, medical bills, or deaths.

Simply by having awareness and justice, a lot of people would be singing a very different tune. If Mr. "I'm too cool for masks" infects several strangers and causes them to miss days of wages, it'll actually show up as a $5,000 bill.

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