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Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

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Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#151

Post by watwut »

ventana wrote: post #81

As a Russian native speaker who graduated from the high school in Russia many years ago, one thing that I don't really understand is why these great works of Russian literature are included in the school must read list. An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for…

I liked it especially as a teenager - that is the time when you are the most depressed and the books makes most sense. Not everyone will like every book. That personal preference does not mean the book cant speak to the whole age category.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#152

Post by HPsquared »

kelnos wrote: post #123
ventana wrote: post #81

As a Russian native speaker who graduated from the high school in Russia many years ago, one thing that I don't really understand is why these great works of Russian literature are included in the school must read list. An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for…

That's a fair point. I read The Idiot in high school, when I was 14 years old, for an assignment. (I don't think I specifically had to read that book, but we were asked to pick from a list, and I picked that one.) I had so much trouble getting through it, and while I had the impression that the writing was brilliant, I wasn't educated or mature enough at that point to appreciate it or even understand many of the them…

One big problem in terms of "bad experience" is that in addition to reading the book itself, you're being graded on a specific kind of understanding of the book, which you then need to communicate to the teacher and the teacher needs to agree. The process transforms something that should be entertaining and edifying, into a combined dread / chore (especially if high grades are needed for life plans). Man I hated English class.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#153

Post by zxexz »

coldtea wrote: post #144
ventana wrote: post #81

As a Russian native speaker who graduated from the high school in Russia many years ago, one thing that I don't really understand is why these great works of Russian literature are included in the school must read list. An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for…

> An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for teens. Bookish teens have been reading these books since they came out. And the average teenager has way worse things to do than reading a classic novel. As for "barely understanding characters' motivations" that's ho…

Bookish teens will read them anyway.

Giving them the option to do so in school, I would imagine would be met thankfully by them if done well, and a "no thanks" from the less-bookish - who very possibly will go on to read them later on in life.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#154

Post by raffael_de »

oytis wrote: post #124
ventana wrote: post #81

As a Russian native speaker who graduated from the high school in Russia many years ago, one thing that I don't really understand is why these great works of Russian literature are included in the school must read list. An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for…

I dunno, I feel like Dostoevsky hits perfectly around high school. I enjoyed Crime and Punishment around 9th grade, but tried read some Dostoevsky as an adult, and it really reads like young adult luterature. I only learned to appreciate Tolstoy as an adult though - it was extremely boring for me as a teenager barring some smaller pieces

Tolstoy is pretty heavy on religious perspectives on moral question. That's probably why I would be boring to a teen. And I totally agree that books like C&P are perfectly readable for young adults. Some people overemphasize the part of analyzing hypothetical symbolism instead of "just" enjoying the story.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#155

Post by HPsquared »

usrnm wrote: post #94
ventana wrote: post #81

As a Russian native speaker who graduated from the high school in Russia many years ago, one thing that I don't really understand is why these great works of Russian literature are included in the school must read list. An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for…

Are kids "ready" to deal with organic chemistry? Or integrals? Do you think that more people will need the knowledge of the reproductive system of plants than the skill of reading and uderstanding large texts? Not simply understanding the words, but actually analyzing and comprehending what's being said

STEM subjects are actually taught in order with foundations first, etc etc. Literature requires understanding all kinds of context that they don't teach.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#156

Post by keiferski »

Crime and Punishment is basically the modern Ur-novel for “your rational plans for success seem logical to you, but will not work out in the way you imagine.”

Pretty relevant for the contemporary tech world, if you ask me.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#157

Post by egormakarov »

ReptileMan wrote: post #121
ventana wrote: post #81

As a Russian native speaker who graduated from the high school in Russia many years ago, one thing that I don't really understand is why these great works of Russian literature are included in the school must read list. An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for…

Russian literature is based on suffering. Someone always suffers - either the protagonist, the author or the reader. If all of them are suffering you have a masterpiece of Russian literature. I guess it is because it prepares you quite well to suffer endless corporate memos.

> suffer endless corporate memos

I think classic russian literature can be everything, but not an exercise in formal double-speak incantations.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#158

Post by RugnirViking »

summa_tech wrote: post #54
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno. I can't read Russian for shit (pre-kindergarten level, I'd guess), but it seems like cheating to read it in English.

If you can read more than one language, try reading translations into two or three different ones. It'll give you a different view of a book you enjoy: the translations will all have a different feel, in my experience.

some portion of this is based on your own relationship with the language, the people and contexts you use it in and learned it in, and your familiarity with this langugage. This is not only okay, its actually cool as all heck. It's being read the same novel by a stern father, a passionate lover, and a friend in the pub doing stupid voices to make you laugh.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#159

Post by NorthSouthNorth »

nephihaha wrote: post #142
kelnos wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read any Dostoyevsky since high school, and don't remember it at all, but I'd imagine it has to do with nicknames. A non-Russian speaker is going to be confused when the same character is referred to as both Alexander and Sasha, for example, and will think they're different people.

I've never understood this particular issue. My mother had it too with Russian literature. Many Russian books have a "cast list" at the beginning to get round this. I don't find it any stranger than William being called Will, Wullie, Bill or Billy; or Robert turning into Rob, Robbie, Rab, Bert, Bob or Bobby; or Elizabeth being turned into Liz, Lizzy, Beth, Betty, Liza, Lilbet etc. I found most Russian diminutives are…

Yeah, it's easy once you pick up the formula, but for first-time readers, it's hard. My first piece of russian literature was The Idiot, and I remember consulting the front page quite often.

There are lots of similar names, and the seemingly random use of full names, first names, last names and nicknames, throws off new readers.

There are also just a lot of characters.

Re: Dostoyevsky isn't difficult

#160

Post by palata »

zxexz wrote: post #153
coldtea wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An average teenager, myself included, always has some better things to do than reading a huge novel, barely understanding characters' motivations, because neither of these books were ever intended for teens. Bookish teens have been reading these books since they came out. And the average teenager has way worse things to do than reading a classic novel. As for "barely understanding characters' motivations" that's ho…

Bookish teens will read them anyway. Giving them the option to do so in school, I would imagine would be met thankfully by them if done well, and a "no thanks" from the less-bookish - who very possibly will go on to read them later on in life.

> Giving them the option to do so in school

Isn't that exactly the idea? Ask everyone to spend time reading a book is a way to give them time to do it. So that some may discover they are bookish. As for the others, it doesn't exactly hurt to try.

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