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Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

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Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the hard evidence of AI being a net improvement for society in the room with us now?

If I'm in the room, yes. For me, AI is one, is the best handicap accessibility tool I've ever had. At a minimum, speech recognition is a higher quality, and second, it lets me write code again. I'm working on the third benefit, which is it helps me organize, helps my ADHD mind organize large chunks of random information. If you look around, you'll find the AI has made some significant improvements to medicine and eng…

> helps my ADHD mind organize large chunks of random information.

I keep seeing this and I'm pretty envious! You must have a different form of ADHD than I do. For me, trying to use AI to build anything is terrible for my attention, it turns everything into a miserable slog because it's so hands off.

I miss getting into flow.

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#152

At the end it's a facility that costs the locals and benefits non-locals. Even if AI is the truly greatest productivity booster, the benefits are still distributed over all its customers, and the environmental impacts are mostly local. It's like if someone is building a landfill in your hometown to bury the whole country's waste. Or it's like a factory that creates zero job.

I’m sorry but I’d like specifics - there are too many environmentalists hand-waving.

This is a well established playbook - it was used with nuclear. It’s being used with oil transport.

It’s literally the same script.

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#153
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, tell how much energy an equal sized vineyard uses compared to a data center?

It takes 870 gallons of water to produce 1 gallon of wine -- if people were genuinely protesting water waste it would be a good idea to start there. Almonds too.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/wine/article/napa-mountain-...

> Napa Valley’s most contentious political battleground — winery and vineyard development — has potentially reached a significant turning point following a series of key victories for proponents of limited expansion, leaving continued growth of Napa’s prized wine region uncertain.

> While final votes were being cast in the midterm election on Nov. 8, (2022,) Napa County’s Board of Supervisors voted to revoke a permit for one of the largest winery development proposals in the region's history, the Mountain Peak winery, following nearly nine years of opposition. ... locals fiercely objected to the project’s scale, voicing concerns over water supply and quality, increased fire risks and potential environmental and biological harm.

https://www.newtimesslo.com/sucking-air-how-one-vineyard-cau...

> The first phase of Coakley Vineyards is what was the most distressing to neighbors: the construction of an irrigation reservoir—also known as an ag pond—to hold 3.3 million gallons of water when full. The pond would be filled (and replenished after depletion and evaporation) with groundwater from three wells on the property.

> To the locals surrounding the property, the plan posed a very real threat to their water supply.

> Steve and two other concerned landowners met with one of the Coakley project leaders, Randy Heinzen, the chief operating officer of local vineyard management and consulting firm Vineyard Professional Services, to discuss their qualms about the project.

> Neither Coakley nor Heinzen responded to requests for comment from New Times for this story.

> According to Steve, the meeting only exacerbated their fears about the pond’s potential stress on surrounding groundwater levels.

https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article306005076.html

This isn't new. 2005: https://www.almanacnews.com/morgue/2005/2005_05_04.clos04.sh...

It also isn't limited to the US. Mexico: https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/protesters-occupy-coahuila-...

> Protesters in Coahuila have occupied the winery of Mexico’s oldest winemaker since Friday night, accusing its owners of using too much water from a shared source, leaving them with too little to irrigate their crops.

> Communal landowners took over the Casa Madero winery in the town of San Lorenzo, 140 kilometers west of Saltillo, to demand that the owners reduce their water use. They first arrived at the winery on Wednesday but left when state police arrived, only to return to enter the property two days later.

> The company accused the protesters of violently installing themselves on the property and blamed municipal police for failing to take action, despite being present. The newspaper El País reported that the protesters were armed with machetes, picks and shovels.

There are also protests of entities, including Harvard's endowment, that purchase vineyards specifically to economically exploit their groundwater rights: https://www.farmlandgrab.org/post/28626-harvard-quietly-amas...

On the other end, local governments can raise excess water usage rates on farms, golf courses, and wineries, instead of giving them offsetting tax or rate breaks and subsidies to attract them: https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/environment/article...

Or incentivize water conservation: https://nypost.com/2026/05/25/us-news/napa-valley-wineries-f...

Which some wineries have proactively done for more than a decade, via wastewater irrigation and recycling post-irrigation water for cleaning casks and other surfaces: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/10/07/446096090/ca...

But that's also been protested, for polluting groundwater reserves: https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article306005076.html

Dry-irrigated wineries that only use rainwater or mountain runoff also exist, but unlike a data centre, they can't close up shop and move when drought hits: https://www.eenews.net/articles/water-shortages-force-a-reck..., https://triplepundit.com/2022/washington-wine-climate-change...

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#154
post #31

Data centers are easy to fight against because there is no constituency really pulling for them. They create only a handful of jobs. Ultimately the entire thing is a waste of time, data centers can be built basically anywhere, and that's why a lot of them are moving to rural red states where they welcome the construction. The fight against AI should just be about taxing token usage. We should also tax the hell out of…

> rural red states where they welcome the construction

The state legislatures might be all for it, but I can say as someone who lives in South Texas, the actual communities are up in arms against datacenters. Of course there's lots of irony in that one of the reasons the datacenters like the area is that there is a gas pipeline that the locals welcomed that can be used to run turbines.

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the hard evidence of AI being a net improvement for society in the room with us now?

If I'm in the room, yes. For me, AI is one, is the best handicap accessibility tool I've ever had. At a minimum, speech recognition is a higher quality, and second, it lets me write code again. I'm working on the third benefit, which is it helps me organize, helps my ADHD mind organize large chunks of random information. If you look around, you'll find the AI has made some significant improvements to medicine and eng…

I like this argument/reasoning more than any I've encountered so far. Thank you! Enabling the disabled is definitely a positive and this is a strong argument for the "pro AI" column.

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#156
post #138

At the end it's a facility that costs the locals and benefits non-locals. Even if AI is the truly greatest productivity booster, the benefits are still distributed over all its customers, and the environmental impacts are mostly local. It's like if someone is building a landfill in your hometown to bury the whole country's waste. Or it's like a factory that creates zero job.

How is this different than a cornfield? A data center is probably a better neighbor because it doesn't kick up dirt, pesticides, and fertilizer into the air.

Generally people enjoy being around them, looking at them, and eating what they produce.

How does HN feel about ai written blogs? Who wants to go stand next to a 30' warehouse?

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's a circular problem. The price wouldn't be exorbitant if these rural areas were left to their own devices. But their utility build outs must be done per rules passed at the behest of the richer urban areas. We're dealing with this bullshit in my own city in another state. From the parks to the roads to the sidewalks to the library every goddamn thing we touch gets driven up to the point of "can't actually do…

Rural power was always expensive, but now due to wildfire risk, it needs to be ruinously expensive. It's not for the benefit of the cities, and driven by corporate risk management.

>Rural power was always expensive,

But not ruinously so? What changed? The rules (both public and private).

> It's not for the benefit of the cities, and driven by corporate risk management.

Which is driven by laws and courts and precedents and best practices and recommendations and beurocratic rules that come from where?

Regardless this has nothing to do with city and everything to do with rich and out of touch.

I'm sure PG&E would be happy to build worse stuff if they weren't sticking their neck out by doing so.

Kind of like how my city would be happy to simply replace it's infrastructure but the state will take a bunch of money away elsewhere if we did that. Of course, if we weren't paying the state taxes we could afford it from scratch ourselves but I digress.

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#158

Well realistically both are bad. Right now our government is purely dysfunctional, so I'm not sure anyone knows how to fight anything. We have a eunuch Congress, and in response each party just tries to push executive power as far as possible, never once considering that someone they dislike could get elected in the future and use that expanded power in a negative way. I'm sure that right at this moment at least some…

What reigning in would you do if you had the power to do it for the US?

I'm no expert, but I'd have a few prerogatives:

- Look into ways to restricting executive power, or more rightly revert it to its previous state as described by the constitution.

- Repeal the pardon power (or at least seriously amend it)

- Find a way to limit the use or impact of executive orders. I'm honestly not sure of the best way to do this, but executive orders have exploded basically at the same rate that congress has receded. At the moment they are really just "very weak laws" due to the fact that no one can pass a real law anymore.

- A friend of mind suggested that you prohibit naming the political party of a candidate on a ballot. This has a few legal problems (eg: the states individually control their election process) but the spirit of his comment is that the two party system is broken. The founding fathers imaged that the speaker of the house would jealously guard his power against the presidency. ie, they did not imagine that being the same party the speaker of the house would just do whatever the president wanted. So like the other suggestions, I'm not sure of the best solution here, but the party system is at odds with our current system of government, and seems to be doing an even worse job in these polarized times

Some things you cannot fix with laws or reforms. Congress has power right now. The president never enforced the TikTok law, never sought war powers for Iran, etc. A healthy Congress would do something about this. A new law or regulation here might not necessarily fix this problem. This is something of a cultural rot.

I realize these answers might not have been super satisfying. I'm not a political expert, and I'm sure smarter people than me have been working on these problems for a while.

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#159
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different than a cornfield? A data center is probably a better neighbor because it doesn't kick up dirt, pesticides, and fertilizer into the air.

Water consumption and localized atmospheric heating have been cited elsewhere as drawbacks. There have been some articles citing noise/vibration pollution (subsonic?) but I'm not completely convinced on that front. Personally, I would add electric grid load to the list. In the worst case, if your local municipality sides with business over the little guy, that means potential brownouts and water shortages for you.

Farming consumes more water than datacenters. Infrasound is pseudoscience. The biggest issue imo is that they use a ton of electricity and this country has forgotten how to expand electricity supply so prices go up. The solution to that is to create more electricity though, not ban datacenters

Re: Americans don't know how to fight AI so they're fighting data centers

#160

If you fight either of those things in the US, you should do so carefully, as it may get you to be targeted by FBI and DHS as an extremist actor as per current government's policy as of approximately a week ago. This is a wall of text but genuinely worth skimming: https://www.wired.com/story/us-law-enforcement-warns-of-anti...

All the more reason for everyone who can speak up to do so.
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