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Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

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Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why cloudflare is loved by tech people. They ARE breaking the web.

Real question: What is the alternative to prevent DDoS? The killer app is that their DDoS prevention is free for small sites.

Most sites can probably make do with ddos mitigation from their hosting provider.

Larger hosting providers may have enough bandwidth to accept and drop most inbound volumetric DDoS. Smaller providers often contract with a DDoS mitigation service; during an attack the mitigation service BGP announces the attacked range, filters out problematic traffic and forwards the rest.

It's been at least 7 years since I ran servers that routinely saw DDoS... at that time, we didn't tend to attract attacks anywhere near 10Gbps, so having 10G connections for severs likely to be targetted did most of the work. I'm sure it's worse now, so 10G might not cover easy attacks but 100G servers aren't hard to find. Attacks do get larger than 100G, but most sites won't be hit with a large attack.

For a small site, taking an outage during a DDoS is often an acceptable alternative too.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#152
post #90

I wonder if USA would have futuristic Datacenter Towns much like coal mining towns - they might have their own lore, vibe and aesthetic about them. Certain new emerging towns would get the moniker of "DC towns". New economies might flourish - perhaps not jobs from DC but certainly the tax money should help. This could happen if the NIMBY movement weren't so extreme.

If it actually helped the economies flourish, then that would be interesting. NIMBY is in some part a reaction to the belief (likely true) that there would be neither jobs nor tax money from a data center in their community backyard--it's all downside with no upside.

Post construction, data centers don't have a lot of employment, so you don't get much income tax or in-community spending from employees.

But, companies put a lot of capital equipment in them, and capital equipment accrues property tax, so there should be taxes paid from that.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#153
post #7
post #5

My first reaction is that 244 acres for a data center sounds absolutely obscene. But I have to admit that I'm coming from a place of ignorance. How big "should" a data center be? How big are some other data centers? How big is us-east-1, for an example of a large one? I'm finding this to be rather difficult information to google.

Almost all of the site would have been open space, existing transmission corridors, an electric substation, and two flood control ponds they threw in to try to sweeten the deal by offsetting the new impermeable surfaces. The data halls are a small portion of the site.

Stormwater ponds are the bare minimum, not a deal sweetener. A deal sweetener would be an ecological management plan which demonstrates a true desire to limit the environmental impacts of this development as much as possible. And no, a storm pond company that just pours chemicals into the water to control algae and plants invasive privets around does not demonstrate that.

You're saying the data center has a small footprint, but it does not. You don't need that much stormwater pond if you don't have giant impervious surfaces.

Deal sweetener is footprint (buildings, parking lots, and substation) being 1/6 of the land with the other 5/6 dedicated to nature preservation.

Not all wide open space is created equal. If it's wide open space with Eurasian grasses that get cut every few weeks, it's useless and has 0 benefit to the local ecology. Even if they weren't cut, they're still do very little for the ecology in the area.

If those forests don't have keystone tree species, then it's the same.

The people running these companies are so incompetent, they can't even do greenwashng right.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Loudoun county has Datacenters that pay enough in taxes equalling the salary of 30k residents earning $40k dollars each (in a county of ~400k population). This is a shockingly high upside relative to any other industry, like Car or Steel industry which pollute way more. These taxes can be used to create better infra and have other things going on. Better schools and maybe even research facilities. But I do think…

Taxes have relatively little to do with how good schools are, that is dominated by the quality of the students who live close enough to attend the schools.

I can't believe you blame students for bad schools.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#155
post #4

What is the actual procedure through which this happens? You buy the land and then are granted permission on a discretionary basis? It seems to me that if you were a small business this becomes much harder to participate in because you need to acquire and hold the unproductive asset. This would mean that land use tends towards that which large firms (which can sustain the costs easily by self-financing) find useful.

It helps if the land is currently an eyesore and you’re the first to do something with it.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The better solution to blocking entire continents is probably doing nothing. For DDoS resistance... Well I can imagine a world where a tech in the same area as IPFS or freenet gives backup access to websites that are overloaded.

> tech in the same area as IPFS or freenet Are we getting that before or after personal jet packs, flying cars, and my tacos delivered via tacocopters? I'll protect my sites with Cloudflare until then, thanks.

Go ahead, just don't set up enormous IP blacklists on cloudflare please

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#157
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you’re right, but when the alternative is all that investment and those construction jobs AND the post-commissioning operational jobs go to a different community and a different economy, … What would you prefer? To me, local communities tend to benefit in multiple different ways during and after these projects, poorer communities become richer, communities with little opportunity now have more opportunity. I’…

But what often happens is that the company is granted a ten year tax abatement in exchange for the jobs, the jobs end up being fewer than promised, and then in ten years the company closes the site and now the community has an empty industrial brownfield that was built for one thing and can't be easily repurposed.

Datacenters rarely get mothballed after 10 years, they’re usually 15-year depreciation schedules in terms of the building and the plant. Equipment within them like servers typically depreciates over 72 months but is rarely removed by hyperscalers promptly after 6 years. More typically it’s around Year 8.

So you won’t see the building cease being useful for about 20 years. You’re getting usually two full cycles of “the servers inside” before a renovation program (or potentially asset/building disposal to another party, or demolition, depending what changes in those 20 years really).

What’s often happening around these tax agreements is they are a mixture of incentive and an offset of prepaid improvement costs to the city/county for developing mains water, sewer, roads, schools, fire and police, and other infrastructure, sufficient to support the 100s of families who may move here to take the post-commissioning jobs, etc.

Often money out the door for the hyperscaler is about the same over 20 years, it’s just some number of $M’s is paid upfront as an “Contribution to Improvements”. That’s actually good for the municipality involved, too.

Municipalities typically know or are told these aren’t tax rebate for 10 years and then it’s getting bulldozed. They’re sophisticated enough and well advised to understand this is a 20+ year investment in their town.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#158
post #133
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unusual to buy the land and take a gamble on its utility, at least whenever datacenter construction is involved. Purchasing parties are risk averse to this exact scenario and work hard to craft contracts that reduce risk. Often the choices are — 1. Buy land at $/acre that reflects very little premium, based on a short feasibility study, but without any ultimate contingency that permitting will occur. This is you…

If you are microsoft, you know you will get the permit.

That’s not true, most hyperscalers and their datacenter building partners use Option 2.

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#159
post #4

What is the actual procedure through which this happens? You buy the land and then are granted permission on a discretionary basis? It seems to me that if you were a small business this becomes much harder to participate in because you need to acquire and hold the unproductive asset. This would mean that land use tends towards that which large firms (which can sustain the costs easily by self-financing) find useful.

I’ve had multiple friends try to start businesses that got stuck on this: You can’t really get permits until you have the property and start drawing up plans. For simple businesses like a retail store in a location that has other retail it’s not too risky to bet that you’ll be approved, too. For businesses with unique needs or that happen to be in the public crosshairs, you’re putting a lot at risk in the process. Th…

It’s true it costs money to then hopefully make it. :)

Architecture, civil engineering, and other design and permitting fees can easily be 7–10% of the overall cost of smaller projects. Even in large projects they’re often 4-5% or more, and the number of billable hours for complex impervious surface and stormwater management adds up fast, as do engineering stamped plans for structural and other factors.

Most cost here is also incurred fairly early before you have any vertical construction done — Phase 2 in a program after land acquisition. So you feel like you’re spending a ton on paperwork and you can’t see anything yet.

You CAN spend a bit of money even before land acquisition on quick feasibility studies but in U.S. terms for something like a residential, small commercial or light industrial project every parcel you go “I like that, can it work?” you are dropping $15-50k during a 45-120 feasibility period. Should it 100% not work out you are NOT getting reimbursed that by the selling party. You’re out the money. Even within 90 days you may find some uncertainties like SEPA approval won’t close before you have to say deal or no deal on the parcel acquisition. This is quite unlike massive companies doing business where the land may not change hands until essentially every approval is locked in (but should it not work out the buyer may be out millions in engineering fees paid to try and make it work).

Borrowing to buy land and then borrowing more to build something is also treated very differently by most lenders. It carries tremendous uncertainty versus you buying a preexisting lot and structures which they know how to value. That’s fundamentally something that causes unwillingness to lend, or changes the rates and down payment or security terms. In contrast with a conforming mortgage for a SFR (single family residence) at 6%, borrowing to build (a construction loan) can be 10-14% APR, often secured via personal guarantee and other assets you possess, and then you have to convert to a personal or commercial mortgage after you complete building what you wanted.

Borrowing to buy the land is even more complicated again — you very often must be able to pay cash for land, and then just borrow to do the construction. Borrowing for both especially with limited assets to secure against will always be a polite “Sorry; we can’t help.”

Re: Microsoft pulls plug on plans for 244-acre data center in Caledonia (2025)

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ratio of jobs and taxes to local resources tied up has to be one of the worst possible trade-offs of any industrial use that you can envision Why? There aren't much "local resources tied up" since it's land that isn't that valuable for the most part. DCs, once built, don't emit fumes or loud noises, or make traffic worse like other industrial land use might. They just sit there quietly and generate tax revenue…

The bigger thing here is just the idea that the alternatives are "Boeing assembly plant" or "data center". Like: if you have the option of getting the Boeing plant, get the Boeing plant! Racine County does not have that option. Meanwhile, the happy sounding businesses there --- like the duck farm --- are actually major polluters, and more problematic for the region than a data center. The people opposing data centers…

> he bigger thing here is just the idea that the alternatives are "Boeing assembly plant" or "data center".

This is a false dichotomy, though. That region has enough land that you could do both. There just isn't much demand for manufacturing in the Upper Midwest right now.

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