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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

bbc.com

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#151

Post by cf100clunk »

petcat wrote: post #41
52-6F-62 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that framing you are saying that Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver should also all seek secession. Likewise, you could say that NYC and LA should singularly secede from America by that same logic. It doesn't track. There is no legal precedent. Alberta as an entity did not exist beyond Canada.

> There is no legal precedent. Legal precedent doesn't really matter here. If Alberta wants to leave and they're willing to fight a war over it, then that's up to them. USA already went through this once.

Since you are comparing Canada and the U.S.A., let's look at some popular phrasing from each's Constitutions:

U.S.A. ''life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness''

Canada ''peace, order, and good government''

Those are fundamental to the identity of each nation's people. Are they core beliefs of the majority of their citizens? Probably. Are Canadians ready to fight a civil war over Alberta separatism? Not at this point, even slightly.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#152

Post by dismalaf »

rirze wrote: post #138

Incoming Canadian Civil War?

No. It's pretty clear that the Liberals have achieved dynasty status, only 25% of Canadians are net taxpayers, the rest live partially or fully on handouts, or are government employees whose income comes from taxes in the first place.

Most Canadians who are upset with the status quo are leaving or have already left. Last year saw a record amount of Canadians move to the US.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#153

Post by belval »

mmastrac wrote: post #133
flossly wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out. This is the ultimate test of a democracy, imho, that you can leave it democratically (by vote and not by force). We've seen some interesting cases of this, in Spain and in the Donbas of the last years. I think the outcome of people voting against it is a great outcome. You have the freedom. You paid for the vote (its expensive) and "they" did not win…

You realize that this is the perfect way for foreign influence to destabilize western society, right? Democracy hasn't been hardened against social media and I'd prefer not to be another failed experiment like Brexit where we allow for foreign money to intentionally damage society.

Maybe, but I have trouble with the framing. Referendum votes are >50%. If a foreign nation can get >50% of the Albertans to agree to something, that's still democracy.

Yes it feels wrong for the US to be giving money to influencers to influence the vote, but it's not like those voters are being coerced. In their opinion, Alberta would be better as a separate country.

Whether that opinion is enlightened or not has no bearing on it being democratic or not.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#154

Post by triceratops »

flossly wrote: post #130
mmastrac wrote: post #125

As an Albertan, I'm embarrassed that this is the image we project to the world, and sad that our punishment for collusion with foreign enemies isn't stronger or better enforced. One of the "separatist" leaders is hiding from the law in Texas. He can stay there. If there was any legitimacy in this process, the petition that got 150% of the votes in less time would have been addressed first rather than this sham, likel…

As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out. This is the ultimate test of a democracy, imho, that you can leave it democratically (by vote and not by force). We've seen some interesting cases of this, in Spain and in the Donbas of the last years. I think the outcome of people voting against it is a great outcome. You have the freedom. You paid for the vote (its expensive) and "they" did not win…

> As an outsider I like this idea of being able to vote yourself out

"Voting with your feet" is an option available to almost everyone except North Koreans.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#155

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

mahrks wrote: post #112
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is truly trolling escaping the Internet The referendum? Or calling for imprisoning people for wrongthink?

No, as the subthread starter points out it is about paid influencers and not about heretical opinions. Bessent and Bannon overtly want the oil and Alberta as a 51st state: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/analysis-alberta-sepa... The U.S., as you very well know, has a long history of influencing foreign separatist movements for its own benefit. It even has overt organizations like the NED, which had a DOGE defu…

We could arrange a swap. Make Washington-Oregon-California into the province of South British Columbia and the great lakes region and New England into New Lower Canada.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#157

Post by baggy_trough »

1986 wrote: post #143
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you would absolutely never tolerate a country like, say, China, supporting, both monetarily and otherwise, a group agitating for California to leave the union No. But I don’t think we’d put people in jail for it unless they were ready to overthrow the government. (Hell, we didn’t even charge the actual people trying to violently overthrow the government with treason.)

That's not true, a number of Jan 6 people were convicted of seditious conspiracy, it's just that those convictions have now been vacated because the coup plotters have now ended up in charge regardless through other means.

Those other means being winning a free and fair election?

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#158

Post by wk_end »

nonethewiser wrote: post #30
jszymborski wrote: post #5

Important context, this referendum isn't binding, but rather a referendum on whether a binding referendum should be held. Separation is deeply unpopular, but Smith has been putting her thumb on the scale every step of the way, and this non-binding referendum isn't subject to the Clarity act in the same way that a subsequent binding one would be.

Is there actually even a legal process for leaving Canada? I would assume you can't just decide to leave. EDIT: oh, there is a process. thats the Clarity Act. This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country.

> This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country.

It's a little surprising - even as a Canadian - if you're unfamiliar with Canadian politics/history/civics, but Canada is more loosely held together than most other countries, including the US. And a comparison with the US is instructive, because Canada's founders were unifying the country the wake of the US Civil War and were working very much in response to it: there was a fear that the US would turn imperial in an exercise of national unity and begin trying to snatch up the rest of the continent from the British and a belief that the British wouldn't care to defend them, which was arguably the primary motivation for Confederation: to form a unified front against American expansionism. And the Fathers of Confederation had seen how horrible the Civil War was and wanted to prevent that sort of thing from occurring, so the provinces - like in the US, formerly independent colonies - were given more power than the States, with the separation of powers clearly and rigidly defined.

The Clarity Act itself wasn't part of Confederation, but that's the cultural legacy that informs it: a civilized process allowing provinces to separate without bloodshed is just about as fundamentally Canadian as anything.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#160

Post by cf100clunk »

dismalaf wrote: post #148
cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

> Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta separatists would face the same challenges and take an equally dim view. This is complicated by the fact that First Nations themselves are highly stratified. They receive billions in dollars from the federal government with zero overs…

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