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Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

beyondplastics.org

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Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#151

Post by Freedumbs »

steviedotboston wrote: post #36

Landfills really aren't that bad. modern landfills have multiple layers of lining to prevent leaking into water supplies and soil. After they are full, they are covered with earth and can become usable land. Their gases have to be managed (can be burned for electricity or processed in other ways) but overall putting trash in the ground and covering it seems alright to me. The amount of land that you actually need isn…

Depends where you are. Some places in the US have decided to use landfills to store radioactive waste openly.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#152

Post by ZeroGravitas »

kube-system wrote: post #120
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #80

Corporations aren't recycling the stuff they say they are recycling. World except America: I'm going to legally mandate what they do. Americans: I'm going to get mad at the abstract concept of recycling.

Plastics recycling is fundamentally a technological issue. Europe doesn't have any magical technology that the US doesn't have. PET is the only plastic for which there is any industrial process that exists anywhere on the planet for closed-loop recycling. Europe has great rates of recycling collection , but processing remains just as much of a problem there as it does anywhere in the global market for recycled plasti…

> The EU recycled an average of 246 kg per person in 2023. This means that 48.0% of the total amount of municipal waste generated was recycled, compared with 37.2% in 2013 (199 kg per person).

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d...

Also, Starbucks apparently introduced a different compostible cup in the EU just as new rules took effect after promising for 20 years to introduce them

https://packagingeurope.com/news/starbucks-to-roll-out-home-...

They also have stronger regulations about making claims like "widely recyclable" without evidence.

https://environment.ec.europa.eu/topics/circular-economy-top...

Maybe the magical technology is the regulations we made along the way.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#153

Post by Freedumbs »

Aboutplants wrote: post #114

The argument can be made, and I’m basically right there, is that we shouldn’t be recycling any plastics period. The energy, waste water, micro plastic production, toxic chemicals, etc involved in any plastic recycling that it is so much worse than simply throwing all Plastic into landfills and use virgin plastic for when you need to use it. The micro plastic pollution that is produced through plastic recycling is ast…

So close. If we shouldn't be recycling them, why not walk back up the chain to the start? Plastics are useful, but should be regulated and used in moderation. Ideally, we would use aluminum instead as that seems to be recyclable, but i assume most cans are coated with some sort of plastic on the inside anyway.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#154

Post by kube-system »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #152
kube-system wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastics recycling is fundamentally a technological issue. Europe doesn't have any magical technology that the US doesn't have. PET is the only plastic for which there is any industrial process that exists anywhere on the planet for closed-loop recycling. Europe has great rates of recycling collection , but processing remains just as much of a problem there as it does anywhere in the global market for recycled plasti…

> The EU recycled an average of 246 kg per person in 2023. This means that 48.0% of the total amount of municipal waste generated was recycled, compared with 37.2% in 2013 (199 kg per person). https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d... Also, Starbucks apparently introduced a different compostible cup in the EU just as new rules took effect after promising for 20 years to introduce them https://pa…

That 48% includes materials sent to overseas "recyclers" who are notorious for burning it or dumping it in the ocean.

https://www.ban.org/plastic-waste-project-hub/trade-data/eu-...

Don't get me wrong, the EU does a great job at reducing waste. But plastics recycling is primarily false propoganda created by petroleum and plastics industries in the 1970s. Most plastics are not meaningfully recyclable.

Those recycling symbols you see on the bottom of your bottle was invented by a US plastics industry lobbying group as propaganda to make you think all of the plastic you put in your recycling bin is being recycled.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/plastic-wars/

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#155

Post by throwaway27448 »

tardedmeme wrote: post #148
throwaway27448 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the second half of your argument is missing. How much of that CO2 emission is even in my control? What is capital doing to reduce its end of output? What sort of mechanisms do I even have to control the economy? I can't stop american companies from selling out my grandkid's future. My parents couldn't either. Our economy is simply not structured to reflect collective interest. If you vote for a political part…

If you drive an ICE vehicle in the US, about 4 tonnes. He just told you that.

I can't do anything about that because I can't go back in time and force our country to build public transit. It's not my fault that the country is so ass-backwards we can't move rationally.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#157

Post by ZeroGravitas »

kube-system wrote: post #154
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU recycled an average of 246 kg per person in 2023. This means that 48.0% of the total amount of municipal waste generated was recycled, compared with 37.2% in 2013 (199 kg per person). https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d... Also, Starbucks apparently introduced a different compostible cup in the EU just as new rules took effect after promising for 20 years to introduce them https://pa…

That 48% includes materials sent to overseas "recyclers" who are notorious for burning it or dumping it in the ocean. https://www.ban.org/plastic-waste-project-hub/trade-data/eu-... Don't get me wrong, the EU does a great job at reducing waste. But plastics recycling is primarily false propoganda created by petroleum and plastics industries in the 1970s. Most plastics are not meaningfully recyclable. Those recycling…

I refer you to my first comment:

Are you regulating the companies that did all this propaganda to make them either do it or shut up?

Or are you getting angry at the abstract concept of recycling?

You keep talking about plastic recycling, but the EU rules made Starbucks stop using plastic for these cups! In America they use a hard to recycle plastic and lie about it to their customers.

Make the corporations pay for it with Extended Producer Responsibility laws and they'll use less plastic. They'll make what they do use easier to recycle. Because it will cost them money if they don't.

If the companies ship stuff abroad and that's bad then ban it. Like the EU has done.

https://environment.ec.europa.eu/topics/waste-and-recycling/...

> The new Regulation on waste shipments entered into force on 20 May 2024. It aims to:

> Ensure that the EU does not export its waste challenges to third countries and contributes to environmentally sound management of waste.

> Strengthen enforcement to prevent illegal shipments of waste occurring within the EU, as well as from the EU to third countries.

> Increase traceability of waste shipments within the EU and facilitate recycling and reuse.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#158

Post by kube-system »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #157
kube-system wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 48% includes materials sent to overseas "recyclers" who are notorious for burning it or dumping it in the ocean. https://www.ban.org/plastic-waste-project-hub/trade-data/eu-... Don't get me wrong, the EU does a great job at reducing waste. But plastics recycling is primarily false propoganda created by petroleum and plastics industries in the 1970s. Most plastics are not meaningfully recyclable. Those recycling…

I refer you to my first comment: Are you regulating the companies that did all this propaganda to make them either do it or shut up? Or are you getting angry at the abstract concept of recycling? You keep talking about plastic recycling, but the EU rules made Starbucks stop using plastic for these cups! In America they use a hard to recycle plastic and lie about it to their customers. Make the corporations pay for it…

My beef is specifically with plastics recycling. Aluminum/steel recycling is, for example, a very real thing.

The issue with "plastics recycling" is that it mostly doesn't exist. The plastics industry wants people to think it exists so that they don't realize the only real solution to plastic waste is to ban single-use plastics.

> If the companies ship stuff abroad and that's bad then ban it. Like the EU has done.

> Regulation on waste shipments entered into force on 20 May 2024.

First of all, as that page says, they didn't ban it, they implemented new regulations on it. And the impetus for those new regulations was, as I said above, the realization that foreign "recyclers" are not recycling, they are dumping/burning/etc.

Unfortunately, those new regulations will probably make no difference, because guess what? The EU is allowing the exporters themselves to commission their own audits.

Now, they could have banned exports entirely, but they didn't. And the reason they didn't is because they can't do it domestically. And they can't do it domestically because the technology to recycle them at industrial scale doesn't exist.. The entire concept is built on fraud.

There is only one type of plastic that can be recycled closed-loop at industrial scale: PET. Literally every other plastic mathematically is guaranteed to create waste. Even other plastics deemed "highly recyclable" at best require 80-90% virgin feedstock, and so the total possible amount you can recycle is only 10-20% of what is produced.

There are multiple solutions to "plastics recycling" and all of the answer are "do something else", e.g.: switch to a different material, incinerate, sequester in a landfill, ban their use, etc.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#159

Post by RetroTechie »

kube-system wrote: post #110
Teever wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true if the bottle is reused several times? I know that in some places they standardize the glass beer bottles to one or two types and strongly encourage people to bring the bottles back to the same location that they get beer from. This results in a circular supply chain that sees bottles sterilized and reused many times. The number I heard was an average of 8 uses on average before a bottle gets a chip in i…

Yeah it is very cheap and viable to wash/reuse bottles, but this requires special handling and isn't compatible with the single-stream systems widely used in the US. In the US we throw everything into a truck and we expect recyclers to sort and re-melt a bunch of broken shards of assorted glass.

Oh man, US is so behind the times in this respect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container-deposit_legislation

In the NL, such 'reverse vending machines' are in every supermarket. They take PET soda bottles, soda cans (since 2023, €0.15 deposit per can), and a few (standardized) types of glass beer bottles.

The latter are often bought in crates, which (with empty bottles in them), are taken by the machine as a whole. On average, these beer bottles do ~20 roundtrips between supermarket & brewer. It simply goes in reverse direction along the same logistics chain supplying those supermarkets.

Non-deposit glass is collected in containers, seperate by color (clear/brown/green). Those have been around since early '80s or so. These days there's also containers for paper/cardboard, textiles, or even used frying oil/fat. Most supermarkets have smaller bins for batteries & small electronics.

Germany even has multi-use PET bottles.

From (extensive!) personal experience, these deposit schemes take a HUGE chunk out of beer/soda cans & bottles littered on roadsides, parks etc (some 75% reduction or so).

But it is cultural thing too. Most people in European countries care for their environment, energy use etc. Most US people, no so much. Other countries: it varies.

Re: Tracking Starbucks' 'widely recyclable' cups: none ended up at recycling

#160

Post by nozzlegear »

bluGill wrote: post #47
nozzlegear wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think calling it a scheme to make people feel better is fair. Grand scheme of things, you'd do more "harm" to the planet (however minuscule on the personal level) by choosing not to recycle than choosing to recycle; a portion of it does get recycled in the end. As for whether or not people use it to absolve themselves of environmental guilt in other aspects of their lives, I personally doubt a significant num…

> Grand scheme of things, you'd do more "harm" to the planet (however minuscule on the personal level) by choosing not to recycle than choosing to recycle; a portion of it does get recycled in the end. Are you sure? A garbage truck direct to the landfill is less energy than a garbage truck (for what isn't recycled), and a second truck to the sort facility, all the machines to sort, and then a truck to the landfill. N…

Good point! It'd be interesting to learn how that math ultimately shakes out for the average recycling plant.
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