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Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

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Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#151
post #4

Obviously, discharging "dark and murky" polluted water is bad. But some of the figures from the lab report don't seem that terrible: * Hexavalent chromium at 0.0104 milligrams per liter, just above the lab’s reporting limit of 0.01 mg/L. Hexavalent chromium is classified as a known human carcinogen by the US National Toxicology Program. It is the substance the Erin Brockovich case was built around. * Arsenic at 0.002…

nah, there is no reason they should be discharging any hexavalent chromium, we have better, less insanely toxic ways of chroming things. trivalent chromium is much less toxic, hexavalent chromium should be banned world-wide. what's more, i'm not finding a reason that tesla would need hexavalent chromium in battery production, which leads me to speculate that this is waste from one of their other car factories where t…

They couldn't sell those cars in europe.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

neat trick is to realize you dont have to pick sides. you can get mad at tesla for dumping wastewater with stuff they dont have a permit for, and you can be mad at the regulators failing to regulate.

But there is no evidence that they are dumping stuff they don’t have a permit for. Finding 1% over background levels in a sample tells you literally nothing. Industrial waste is called such for a reason.

> Industrial waste is called such for a reason.

Which is why you shouldn't dump it in a river used for fishing? (Or any river for that matter)

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#153
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But according to the article the permit is for dumping wastewater into a ditch. And Tesla appears to deliver the wastewater to that ditch by pipe. And it doesn't appear like the pipe is the topic of contention here, but where it ends and what comes out of it. All things that seem to be properly permitted, from what the article is telling us

They have a permit to dump water but not put it in the ditch where the pipe runs. They need to get it to a body of water, not a ditch. Dumping into the drainage ditch or running a pipe in the drainage ditch requires a separate permit. The water quality is also questionable. Tesla and the drainage company are at odds on the testing method. At least that’s my understanding of the situation

Doesn't the article state that "The permit, a Texas Pollutant Discharge Elimination System authorization known as TPDES, allowed up to 231,000 gallons of treated wastewater per day to be discharged into an unnamed ditch..."?

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#154

> The permit, a Texas Pollutant Discharge Elimination System authorization known as TPDES, allowed up to 231,000 gallons of treated wastewater per day to be discharged into an unnamed ditch that flows into Petronila Creek and from there into Baffin Bay, a longtime South Texas saltwater fishing destination. Ok, so sounds like Tesla got the necessary legal provisions. > What it did not do, explicitly, was grant Tesla t…

> Tesla have the right to dump water or not? I would assume that this is exactly what a permit is for?

My guess is this is a question of overlapping jurisdictions. The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality is presumably responsible for water quality, and so gets a say on what kinds of discharge in the state are safe. The drainage district has to manage the actual ditches and water on the ground, so they get a say (or at least notice) of new users of their infrastructure.

Just like how the DOT gets to create rules about locomotives but Railways still get to decide who can run trains on their tracks.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#155
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, maybe strive to release no pollutants at all? Then we wouldn't need all the pesky big government overreach.

To exist is to pollute.

This seems to be the credo of too much of the tech industry lately.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really; strontium is quite common in the crust. In the oceans it occurs in the single-digit mg/L. This isn't a meaningful datapoint. The entire article doesn't show particularly concerning findings and the protests read more like nimbyism than environmental concern. Industrial processes have some non-zero level of impact and complaining when someone runs one that's not very polluting at all is letting the perfect…

Yes just searched it and found: While natural strontium (which is mostly the isotope strontium-88) is stable, the synthetic strontium-90 is radioactive and is one of the most dangerous components of nuclear fallout, as strontium is absorbed by the body in a similar manner to calcium. Natural stable strontium is not hazardous to health at low levels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium I guess I didn't realize tha…

Every element up to and including bismuth, excluding technetium and promethium, have stable primordial isotopes (i.e., have been on Earth since it was made), and in addition, thorium, uranium, and maybe plutonium (Pu-244 is on the very edge, so it's not clear if any primordial nuclei of it remain) also have primordial isotopes. Every element with bismuth or higher atomic number has no stable isotopes, and the elements from astatine through neptunium naturally occur largely via decay sequences of uranium or natural nuclear reactions in uranium ore.

Nuclear fission reactions tend to result in the daughter nuclei being considerably smaller than the mother nucleus--like a 70/30 or 60/40 split, which means that the fission products of uranium are firmly in the range of elements that have stable isotopes. (Although due to larger elements being richer in neutrons, most fission products have too many neutrons, hence undergo radioactive decay themselves).

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#157
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would Eurofins be able to set up monitoring on Tesla's property? What other sources would have similar pollutants to a Lithium factory? It seems pretty specific and if there was some other obvious source why wouldn't Tesla point that out?

Hexavalent chromium can come from many industrial sources, including welding stainless steel. If you go to Tesla's lithium refinery in google maps[1] and follow the drainage ditch along highway 77 (to the northeast) about a half mile, you'll see a company called Tex-Isle Processing. They supply steel pipes and coating services for oil drilling.[2] It could be that one of their manufacturing processes creates hexavale…

Ok, that's one of the pollutants...

But I agree, measuring at the end of the ditch was the wrong thing to do if they take issue with that specific factory (though it was the right thing to do to prove a harmful pollution exists in general)

So another measurement directly at the pipe would be in order.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#158
post #52
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classic pre-EPA slogan comes to mind: "the solution to pollution is dilution".

In some cases it still is, but we need to emphasize the exceptions , which can be rather serious. For example, we can hardly "dilute" CFCs or CO2 any more than we did, by putting them into a whopping 5.15×10^18 kg of the entire atmosphere of the Earth. Yet both still cause bad things, because there's no (sufficient) process to break them down or move them to a safe state.

Is that so? The amount of atmosphere stays the same, but we're constantly adding more CO2. So wouldn't this continually reduce the dilution?

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#159
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a permit to dump water but not put it in the ditch where the pipe runs. They need to get it to a body of water, not a ditch. Dumping into the drainage ditch or running a pipe in the drainage ditch requires a separate permit. The water quality is also questionable. Tesla and the drainage company are at odds on the testing method. At least that’s my understanding of the situation

Doesn't the article state that "The permit, a Texas Pollutant Discharge Elimination System authorization known as TPDES, allowed up to 231,000 gallons of treated wastewater per day to be discharged into an unnamed ditch..."?

They don’t own the drainage ditch. They can still dump the water into the local watershed/river whatever body of water per the permit you stated.

Re: Tesla's lithium refinery discharges 231,000 gallons of polluted wastewater a day

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is how car manufacturers worked around the old tail pipe emission laws. They added air pumps plumbed to the exhaust manifold(s) to increase the exhaust mass diluting the stream enough to pass emissions tests. Problem solved! I'm sure that people of a certain bent will eat your comment up but that's just not true. Air pumps were for catalyst efficiency. The old ones needed extra oxygen molecules floating around…

> Air pumps were for catalyst efficiency. The old ones needed extra oxygen molecules floating around for the big stuff (hydrocarbons) to oxidize with until the catalyst was up to operating temp and working at peak-ish efficiency. My experience comes from driving and working on a 1988 GMC 6000 truck with an anemic 350 small block with a Muncie SM465 behind it. There was no catalytic converter, only a muffler. It featu…

Medium duties are weird beasts indeed.

Well, FWIW the air pumps still can -help- with unburnt fuel...

It's not as good as a Cat for emissions but it's better than nothing, so they actually started being used before Cats; they just are used different now.

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