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Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

m.good.is

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Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#151

Post by tomrod »

robotresearcher wrote: post #19
chad_oliver wrote: post #10

This is a great solution, but it seems like it is designed to follow a random path (that is, where the wind blows). How do you prevent this from creating a false sense of security, when in fact there are areas of the desert which have not been tested? I remember when I was little I built a small platform high up in a tree. My father refused to let me put a rail around it, because the sort of rail I could build would…

A truly random path would be pretty good, since you approach perfect coverage with repeated runs. Alas, the wind direction is not random, particularly in this kind of environment. An interesting demining approach is to buy the local villagers lots of sheep and pen them in the areas of concern. Once in a while a sheep goes boom. Meanwhile: wool and baby sheep as a side effect.

Instead of sheep (which apparently require a lot of contact)--how many emu farms in the US have gone bankrupt recently?

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#152

Post by ThomPete »

hughlomas wrote: post #127
ThomPete wrote: post #113

I was involved in a startup that tried to find landmines using a genetically engineered plant. The semen would be spread out over an area and then wherever there was landmines it would turn red. The other area would stay green. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aresa_Biodetection

What happened to the company?

Lost funding because it had a hard time getting funding and reaching it's goals.

It even had Bill Clinton involved and through him UN.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#153

Post by politician »

konstruktor wrote: post #123
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they couldn't find a farmer brave enough to seed a minefield?

And how do you irrigate and fertilize mined territory in the Afghan desert in a way that's cheaper than actual demining? Walking around with a hose or setting up an irrigation system seems too dangerous (or require partial demining to create footpaths anyway), and using any type of aircraft is expensive.

Cactus? The American southwest is largely desert, but there are plants adapted to the low moisture environment.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#154

Post by marcamillion »

viraptor wrote: post #121
jontas wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they're handing out jobs, I sure hope I'm not the one assigned to drive these stakes and run the ropes through the minefields :)

You don't have to run them through the minefield really. You could potentially start from the side and drag two ends of the lines from the side. May be harder with heavy / long lines / wind, but come on - we can build hanging bridges over very high canyons without anyone levitating to the other side first ;)

That's exactly what I was referring to.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#155

Post by heyitsnick »

shadowfiend wrote: post #118
chernevik wrote: post #102

It is depressing to me that a community as smart as this is so congratulatory of such inch-deep stuff. Oooh, landmines! Design! Shiny! But a fast perusal of the comments shows that this approach is at best problematic. And a deeper reading of the comments suggests this might very well be a dangerous anti-pattern. People, you are some of the brightest and cleverest people walking the earth. And the earth has some nast…

“But you do his effort to help no favors by upvoting it to the moon because it looks cool. The informed and thoughtful critique in the comments DOES help, and a dialogue talking about the potential application of design to the problem would help still further.“ Upvotes give a post visibility. Visibility fosters discussion. Discussion yields information, critique, and dialogue. I'm uncertain as to why you're complaini…

Couldn't agree more. I learned a lot about this issue thanks to excellent, insightful and well-researched comments in this thread (thanks _djo_ and many others). If it weren't for the high vote-count, perhaps some of those wouldn't have bothered commenting in this thread.

Perhaps all it needs it changing one's own meaning behind an upvote from 'i full endorse the link' to 'this is a thread worthy of discussion'

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#156

Post by PeterisP »

Vivtek wrote: post #29
_djo_ wrote: post #13

Sadly, demining is not this simple or easy. Mine rollers and mine flails like this have been tried and tested since WWI but none have proven completely effective in finding and clearing mines. This is partially because they only work well on totally flat terrain and rapidly lose effectiveness in rougher terrain where a large number of mines are typically buried. In practice, solutions like this achieve only 50-60% ef…

The difference is this costs 40 € and can clear a couple of mines for that money. Afghanistan is not exactly rolling in cash, so any cheap improvement is a valuable addition to the toolbox - it provides a way for poor communities to do something while they're waiting for America to donate enough money to clean up their mess. My guess is that demining NGOs will be using something like this soon enough if it proves eff…

The point is that clearing a couple of mines is not useful and is even harmful.

A patch of land is unusable while mined; useful when cleared, but if it's 50% cleared (or 80% cleared) then it is murderous, because then it gets used, resulting in dead and crippled locals.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#157

Post by PeterisP »

LaGrange wrote: post #108
humbledrone wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only very slightly. Just to be clear, are you saying that it is only very slightly better for a sheep, rather than a human child, to be maimed by a land mine? That seems to be what you wrote, but I'm having a very difficult time reconciling your world view with my own, so I'm hoping that I am somehow misunderstanding.

Both involve sentient beings. This is not about valuing children less. This is about valuing sheep more. This might be an uncomfortable world view, taking how much we depend on non-human abuse in our civilization, but it's not the only case where we built it on abuse of others, human or not.

If it was neccessary to save my child, I'd eagerly murder every sheep in the world in the most painful way possible with my hands.

Animal lives and welfare do matter, but when it comes to weighing human lives against animal lives, only a ratio of something like a million-to-one may be ethically justified. Definitely not one-to-one sheep to a kid. Definitely not even hundred-to-one. It could be reasonable to sacrifice a few humans to spare a species from extinction, but not to save some individual animals, however sentient they may be.

My fellow humans are important. Leaving a kid to die to spare a hundred sheep is disgraceful.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#158

Post by pbhjpbhj »

_djo_ wrote: post #49
Vivtek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is this costs 40 € and can clear a couple of mines for that money. Afghanistan is not exactly rolling in cash, so any cheap improvement is a valuable addition to the toolbox - it provides a way for poor communities to do something while they're waiting for America to donate enough money to clean up their mess. My guess is that demining NGOs will be using something like this soon enough if it proves eff…

Demining organisations already use mine rollers in situations where they make sense. As I said, they use a layered approach, with mine-rollers, vehicles, sniffer dogs, etc used as the circumstances require it. The problem with communities doing it themselves is it'll give them a false sense of security about the safety of known minefields. This could potentially increase the number of mine-related injuries because fa…

I think you went hyperbolic in your GP post. You said that mine-rollers were "useless" - which they clearly are not if they can clear mines as a first pass (yes given the right terrain).

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#159

Post by pbhjpbhj »

PeterisP wrote: post #156
Vivtek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is this costs 40 € and can clear a couple of mines for that money. Afghanistan is not exactly rolling in cash, so any cheap improvement is a valuable addition to the toolbox - it provides a way for poor communities to do something while they're waiting for America to donate enough money to clean up their mess. My guess is that demining NGOs will be using something like this soon enough if it proves eff…

The point is that clearing a couple of mines is not useful and is even harmful. A patch of land is unusable while mined; useful when cleared, but if it's 50% cleared (or 80% cleared) then it is murderous, because then it gets used, resulting in dead and crippled locals.

>The point is that clearing a couple of mines is not useful and is even harmful. //

A field that you must use to avoid starving has 100 mines in it, you can remove [on average] 55 of those mines using a locally made and affordable device. The field will be used anyway. Would you deploy the device?

You're leading a demining team. A village have asked you to clear a field that they rely on for crops (other areas are too rocky or haven't enough good soil). You can send out some locally produced cheap demining devices first that will remove about 50% of the mines reducing the risk to your team. Would you deploy the device?

"is not useful" you say?

Your position appears to be a counterpoint to a statement that these devices will clear all mines effectively from all areas in all conditions. I've not seen anyone make such a claim. Your position is only tenable when a mined area is not needed by the locals.

The devices, and the beautifully made film, have another purpose which is far from useless too - attracting attention and thence funding for demining projects.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#160

Post by _djo_ »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #158
_djo_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demining organisations already use mine rollers in situations where they make sense. As I said, they use a layered approach, with mine-rollers, vehicles, sniffer dogs, etc used as the circumstances require it. The problem with communities doing it themselves is it'll give them a false sense of security about the safety of known minefields. This could potentially increase the number of mine-related injuries because fa…

I think you went hyperbolic in your GP post. You said that mine-rollers were "useless" - which they clearly are not if they can clear mines as a first pass (yes given the right terrain).

I disagree. I said 'solutions like this', i.e. mine rollers as a single technique, were useless. I stand by that statement because the stats are quite clear on this as even in ideal conditions (which are seldom present) a roller can only be expected to detonate half the mines in an area. In fact in many areas rollers can't be used at all because of the terrain and vegetation, so demining teams use a combination of other techniques.

This concept is actually worse than useless because of the debris it scatters across a minefield and the false confidence it provides. While I applaud the designer's attempt to create something useful, his lack of domain knowledge has resulted in a design that doesn't solve the problem and may make things worse.

If I come across as bit hyperbolic, it's because I strongly believe that this is a horrible and underreported problem which demands both carefully-considered and effective solutions and acknowledgement of the people whose hard work and sacrifices have made so many places safe again.

It seems silly to laud an ineffective design while there are people out there every day clearing landmines with solutions that work.

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