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Agentic Coding Is a Trap

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Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#151

Post by hibikir »

CGamesPlay wrote: post #135
byzantinegene wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

Exactly this. We need to be more precise than blanket statements like "agentic coding is a trap" and start figuring out what a "tasteful" application of agentic coding looks like. ChatGPT is destroying liberal arts curriculums because students can choose to not do anything of the thinking themselves and produce mediocre work that passes the bar. I think the same problem is showing itself with agentic coding, just wit…

On liberal arts is simply a matter of what the students want to get out of the class, vs what the teacher wants the students to do: There's a huge disconnect in goals and expectations, so there's no way for the teacher to actually win. The fact that there's such disconnect should give the departments pause.

This doesn't happen at all for using agentic coding: What the programmer wants and what the boss wants are pretty well aligned. There are corner cases where someone isn't allowed to use LLMs, but does it anyway, but in most cases, the organization agrees.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#152

Post by danenania »

byzantinegene wrote: post #116
fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

If a junior builds something with agents that turns into a mess they can’t debug, that will teach them something. If they care about getting better, they will learn to understand why that happened and how to avoid it next time.

It’s not all that different than writing code directly and having it turn into a mess they can’t debug—something we all did when we were learning to program.

It is in many ways far easier to write robust, modular, and secure software with agents than by hand, because it’s now so easy to refactor and write extensive tests. There is nothing magical about coding by hand that makes it the only way to learn the principles of software design. You can learn through working with agents too.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#153

Post by catlifeonmars »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

> The claim you should know everything about everything you work on is an intensely naive one.

I disagree with this take. Personally, I pride myself in learning the code bases I work on in detail, sometimes better than the leads for those code bases. I’m not saying that everyone should do so, but it’s achievable and not naive at all.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#154

Post by jachauhan »

byzantinegene wrote: post #116
fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

[flagged]

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#155

Post by komali2 »

josephg wrote: post #124
keyle wrote: post #79

As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". I really don't like these meetings where you're dragged in in the middle of them without any clue. The questions came flying in fast, without any introduction, and this was about an external integration out of a dozen. They have their own lingo, different from ours, to make the situation worse. I had a _very…

> As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Good doctors often refuse to give any drugs or any advice until they understand the whole situation properly. If you're a senior developer, you're the one who has to push back again…

> Can you give me a quick overview of the system architecture

I think what the OP is saying is that it's the OP's job to know that, and didn't, because they over leverage the LLM.

Like if a doctor was brought in on a cardio consult on their patient because they had a maybe unrelated heart condition, and the only thing they could answer to "why did you prescribe cemidine instead of decimine" is "lemme get back to you on that."

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#156

Post by dbrecht_ »

I wrote something that touches on a few of the same points not too long ago (namely vendor lock-in and inability to project cost with LLMs at the wheel). Tangential topics but I think there's a healthy enough amount of intersection to at least join in on the discussion.

I do agree that if we just rely on AI for all outputs and some reviews (at least to a threshold, because we simply can't keep up with the AI throughput as humans) we will eventually have skills atrophy. Here's where the tangents intersect: I've been working on a way to have the best of both worlds. We can still use AI to generate a large swathe of code, but use good old software engineering to do it. My project (https://salesforce-misc.github.io/switchplane/) inverts the control. Rather than having LLM-as-runtime and doing all the things, you define and write LangGraph control flows that only use the LLM when judgement is actually required. The basic principle is:

If it's deterministic, write it in code. If it requires judgement, use the LLM.

Switchplane itself is local-only but the principles can be applied to deployed agentic services as well. Because the approach is code-first, we can have that vendor independence: Use whatever model you want anywhere in the graph. One goes down? No problem. Swap the config without impacting the overarching control flow.

Cost becoming a factor? Limit LLM loops or constrain their access however you want. It's just code that needs to be updated. You control the runtime, not the LLM.

Concerned about non-deterministic behaviour when you need determinism? Don't be. It's in code.

Worried about skills atrophying because we're handing off everything to an LLM? That's mitigated somewhat here because you still need to think in systems in order to build execution graphs in the first place.

It might not demo as well as a number of markdown files being executed by an LLM. It's definitely a more reliable approach in the long run though.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#157

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

dilyevsky wrote: post #150
ryandrake wrote: post #100

Using AI to go faster is optimizing the wrong thing. At every place I've worked, the "code writing" part takes the least amount of time, compared to all the other things you need to do in order to implement a feature. Let's examine a feature that takes a day to code: First, you've got to plan everything, using whatever Agile or Waterfall planning ritual your company uses, get the task breakdown, file the JIRA tickets…

1. models are now extremely good at totally automating tedious tasks such as updating dependancies, build/deploys scripts, unit tests, etc what used to take days now can takes minutes. Easily 50x speedup on this. This was non-trivial part of every engineer's day-to-day at an established company. "platform engineering" or whatever they call this now is dead. 2. technically risky ideas that you never would have tried b…

> 1. models are now extremely good at totally automating tedious tasks such as updating dependancies, build/deploys scripts, unit tests, etc what used to take days now can takes minutes. Easily 50x speedup on this. This was non-trivial part of every engineer's day-to-day at an established company. "platform engineering" or whatever they call this now is dead.

I confess that I don't understand why this isn't true, because it seems to be true on the micro level, but it really hasn't been my experience. The platform engineers I'm familiar with are desperately trying to tread water to keep their systems healthy against the now-higher code velocity without falling to pieces. (Perhaps people used to make minor day-to-day improvements while coding that Claude enables us to ignore?)

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#158

Post by wiieee »

danenania wrote: post #152
byzantinegene wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

If a junior builds something with agents that turns into a mess they can’t debug, that will teach them something. If they care about getting better, they will learn to understand why that happened and how to avoid it next time. It’s not all that different than writing code directly and having it turn into a mess they can’t debug—something we all did when we were learning to program. It is in many ways far easier to w…

“Currently an engineer at OpenAI”

Don’t forget to mention that.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#159

Post by bhagyeshsp »

byzantinegene wrote: post #116
fnordpiglet wrote: post #51

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

Self-taught, "junior" here.

Due to English-language limitation my most adult life, I struggled to code. Used visual coding etc. But of course, I can't make a living on drag-and-drop harness.

Comes in GPT-3.5, accelerated my learning. Now I'm running my incorporated company, just launched one software-hardware hybrid product. Second one is a micro-SaaS in closed beta.

The point is: when people use "juniors" as a fixed shaped blobs of matter, they focus on the juniors that were in any case going to make mistakes: AI or not. Misses the key point of agentic usage.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#160

Post by sterlind »

bhagyeshsp wrote: post #159
byzantinegene wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

Self-taught, "junior" here. Due to English-language limitation my most adult life, I struggled to code. Used visual coding etc. But of course, I can't make a living on drag-and-drop harness. Comes in GPT-3.5, accelerated my learning. Now I'm running my incorporated company, just launched one software-hardware hybrid product. Second one is a micro-SaaS in closed beta. The point is: when people use "juniors" as a fixed…

accelerated what learning? learning to code? learning to engineer? learning to manage? learning to market?
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