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For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

christophermeiklejohn.com

151–160 of 191 posts

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#151
post #19

Programming with Claude is still engineering. It is like designing a bridge, which remains engineering even when a worker pours the concrete instead of you. In the past we were forced to pour the concrete ourselves. I understand how many of us enjoyed the sound and the smell of the concrete being poured. Myself, I’m happy to never get my hands dirty again, and focus on the actual engineering.

Chemical engineer here - I look at this similar to how a lot of professional engineers work, drafting gets passed off to eng techs, pfds get passed off to eng techs... The "actual engineering" is in the ideas, the applications, the reviews, and most importantly the final accountability.

Studied Electronic Engineering and have friends in Civil Engineering. By the time, you get to the actual implementation, the design has been tested so many times that errors are often material defects, not design defects. Engineering is about ironing out all the design defects and have all relevant unknowns be known.

Working with claude is closer to “grandma recipes” than any engineering or scientific practice.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think concentrating on the physical act of typing on the keyboard is maybe taking it a little too far. The author of the OP talks more about holding a lot of the problem in their head and entering a "flow" state where they figure out a solution. Most of my interaction with AI models and agents is still mediated by a keyboard and still requires a lot of "typing ascii characters". ;-)

The "typing ascii characters" angle is a bit hyperbolic, I admit. But my intention is to get people to think about their software, not their personal experience of it. BTW, there's nothing preventing you from using AI agents and staying in the flow state. If you want that, the universe is not stopping you. In fact, not dealing with the minutia of source code may well free us up and allow even greater flow experiences…

> In fact, not dealing with the minutia of source code may well free us up and allow even greater flow experiences.

You say minutia, but others say well organized notation and predictive systems. At least for me, writing code is as easy as writing English and with less effort.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#153
post #24

People are blown away when I tell them that, in the last 6 months, my job of coding has changed entirely, and that I now write very little code, but instead manage agents who write it. It is still engineering, and I still very much care what that code is, it's interfaces, how it interacts with the world, how it is tested, etc. etc., but it has taken me a while to get used to the idea of me not writing the code. I'm s…

I disagree completely that what you describe is still “engineering.”

You are now a manager. In effect, you’ve consented to a career change.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#154
The staccato framing is right. It's also describing the default posture, not the settled one.

That loop (open a session, ask a question, redirect, switch) happens before the spec discipline is tight enough to trust the result without watching. When you've actually delegated well, you're not context-switching constantly between sessions. You hand over a detailed spec, wait for the agent to finish, and evaluate. The watching gets compressed to the handoff and the return, not the whole run.

Most engineers haven't gotten there, because getting there is hard. The spec has to be good enough that the agent can hit an ambiguity without needing to ask, fill a gap without needing your correction, and still produce something worth using. That's a different kind of writing than what most engineers were doing before. It takes the kind of attention that's hard to find when you're also redirecting three other sessions.

The flow state question is the more interesting one. It doesn't disappear. It moves. The continuous-arc attention used to live at the implementation layer. Now it's available at the spec-writing layer. Most people haven't redesigned their work to find it there. The new deep-work mode runs from a high-level goal through a narrow, implementation-ready spec through a validation pass. That can be a continuous arc if you've structured the work to allow it. It just doesn't look like the old one, and the muscle memory for it doesn't exist yet.

Whether that's actually flow or just a different kind of concentration is a real question. The engineers that I know (myself included), who've found something like the old rhythm have moved most of their time/effort upstream in the process. The ones still in the redirect loop are usually starting with stories with the same information they always had in them, ran through an LLM to make them appear more tightly defined.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#155
post #19

Programming with Claude is still engineering. It is like designing a bridge, which remains engineering even when a worker pours the concrete instead of you. In the past we were forced to pour the concrete ourselves. I understand how many of us enjoyed the sound and the smell of the concrete being poured. Myself, I’m happy to never get my hands dirty again, and focus on the actual engineering.

No, it’s management, not engineering.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#156
What is the "grunt work"? I think there's a difference of opinion with the commenters. :)

The work is, among other things:

* Writing components * Writing glue * Requirements gathering * Architectural design * Testing

Which parts are the grunt work depends on the individual. Personally, writing components was the most challenging, least grunt work job there was. Requirements and design was the next most fun, but not really very challenging. Writing glue and testing was grunt work--had to get done, but was mind-numbing.

As one of my friends put it, "Beej, writing software was never the goal."

I might counter that managing LLMs was never the goal, either, so we'll get to see where that leads.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#157
Choose when and where and how you apply it and the sadness goes away. There's zero rule that you have to use an LLM in your workflow; even if your peers insist it's "stupid not to."

When I started to get this feeling recently (the sadness around the flow state being knocked off-axis), I started asking myself "what are you rushing toward? Do you really need to be working like this? Is this truly rational or just socially congruent?" YMMV but may be helpful for some.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#158
post #34

If you found Phish twinned well with deep, focused work, you might enjoy grindcore for frequently interrupted work, since most of the songs are less than a minute long, like these: https://discordanceaxis.bandcamp.com/album/original-sound-ve...

I have a similar tendency. I doesn't really work for me to write code and listen to lyrics so EDM and grindcore, like carcass, works for me. Either there are few words or you can understand them.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#159
post #148
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want the frontier on prem to be true > that don’t ship your codebase to Beijing DeepSeek is open weight, open source.

> DeepSeek is open weight, open source. Sure, but I can't currently afford the hardware to run the frontier model.

Okay but that hardware doesn't have to be in Beijing, it can be in a Dutch data centre.

Re: For thirty years I programmed with Phish on, every day

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah honestly. I could easily architect the thing out but coding it is so boring. I love this new paradigm and sometimes the LLM even suggests a better architecture!

I guess we are not the same. I would be perfectly fine with this new branch of "software development" if you guys didn't coopt our name and call yourselves programmers and engineers.

I did programming for 7 years (before I moved to management for 10). I’m definitely an engineer and LLMs at this point are not good enough where a non-engineer could come up with something solid out of vibe coding. That might not be true in 6 months.
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