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Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

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Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#151
post #88

These posts are going to be a constant for the next year, because there's no objective way to compare models (past low-level numbers like token generation speed, average reasoning token amount, # of parameters, active experts, etc). They're all quite different in a lot of ways, they're used for many different things by different people, and they're not deterministic. So you're constantly gonna see benchmarks and test…

There are objective ways to compare models. They involve repeated sampling and statistical analysis to determine whether the results are likely to hold up in the future or whether they're just a fluke. If you fine-tune each model to achieve its full potential on the task you expect to be giving it, the rankings produced by different benchmarks even agree to a high degree: https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.05195 The author d…

Fine-tuning for a specific task is even much less realistic than the benchmarks shown in TFA.

Most people who have computers could run inference for even the biggest LLMs, albeit very slowly when they do not fit in fast memory.

On the other hand, training or even fine tuning requires both more capable hardware and more competent users. Moreover the effort may not be worthwhile when diverse tasks must be performed.

Instead of attempting fine-tuning, a much simpler and more feasible strategy is to keep multiple open-weights LLMs and run them all for a given task, then choose the best solution.

This can be done at little cost with open-weights models, but it can be prohibitively expensive with proprietary models.

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#152

I'm glad we're seeing a shift towards objectively scored tests. We've been doing this at scale at https://gertlabs.com/rankings , and although the author looks to be running unique one-off samples, it's not surprising to see how well Kimi K2.6 performed. Based on our testing, for coding especially, Kimi is within statistical uncertainty of MiMo V2.5 Pro for top open weights model, and performs much better with tools…

Curious, why can't you provide a measurement of context size for a human. Surely there must be enough science to make a good approximater.

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is we will end up in a similar spot to hiring people. You can look at a CV (benchmarks) but you won't know for sure until you've worked with them for six months. We as an industry cannot determine if one software engineer is objectively better than another, on practically any dimension, so why do we think we can come to an objective ranking of models?

The CV-to-six-months analogy is actually exactly right and it's also why benchmarks for hiring people stopped being useful. The signal that holds up is what you see when something breaks, which is hard to compress into a number.

this smells like an ai-generated comment so much

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#155
post #102

These posts are going to be a constant for the next year, because there's no objective way to compare models (past low-level numbers like token generation speed, average reasoning token amount, # of parameters, active experts, etc). They're all quite different in a lot of ways, they're used for many different things by different people, and they're not deterministic. So you're constantly gonna see benchmarks and test…

The news is not in the way to compare models, it’s that Kimi K2.6 (and I’d add Deepseek v4 Pro) are more or less equivalent to Opus and that’s already pretty big. They are open source and cost waaaay less per token than American models. I’m using them right now on the $20 Ollama cloud plan and I can actually work with them on my side projects without reaching the limits too much. With Claude Pro $20 plan my usage can…

They are no way as good as Opus yet. But Sonnet, yes. Using all in real life.

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#156
post #129
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The news is not in the way to compare models, it’s that Kimi K2.6 (and I’d add Deepseek v4 Pro) are more or less equivalent to Opus and that’s already pretty big. They are open source and cost waaaay less per token than American models. I’m using them right now on the $20 Ollama cloud plan and I can actually work with them on my side projects without reaching the limits too much. With Claude Pro $20 plan my usage can…

Or maybe it is a pretty good thing for the American economy that you can get AI at cost rather than monopoly pricing. You know, for the rest of the economy that is not big tech.

It's not good for current administration. The American AI growth is only thing that keeps the GDP not looking terrible.

And investor pumping money in US AI circular money flow just makes innovation everywhere else slower. If not for the GPU/Memory drought running stuff locally (or just in competition cloud) would be far cheaper

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#157
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's objective metrics. Not an objective way to compare, which is the selection of metrics to include.

That's exactly why there's a ton of different benchmarking suites used for evaluating hardware performance. I reckon we'll have similar suites comparing different aspects of models. And, at some point, we'll be dealing with models skewing results whenever they detect they're being benchmarked, like it happened before with hardware. Some say that's already happening with the pelican test.

> I reckon we'll have similar suites comparing different aspects of models.

The problem is that hardware benchmarks are harder to game. Yes, hardware manufacturer can make driver tweaks for say particular game to run better but the benchmark is still representable for the workflow user faces and they can't change the most important part, hardware, they can't benchmark gimmick their way in designing hardware

Meanwhile in LLM land the game is to tune it for the current popular set of benchmarks, all while user experience is only vaguely related to those results

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#158

These posts are going to be a constant for the next year, because there's no objective way to compare models (past low-level numbers like token generation speed, average reasoning token amount, # of parameters, active experts, etc). They're all quite different in a lot of ways, they're used for many different things by different people, and they're not deterministic. So you're constantly gonna see benchmarks and test…

My theory is we will end up in a similar spot to hiring people. You can look at a CV (benchmarks) but you won't know for sure until you've worked with them for six months. We as an industry cannot determine if one software engineer is objectively better than another, on practically any dimension, so why do we think we can come to an objective ranking of models?

Terrible comparison. CV is just a list, telling you barely anything about performance and that's when candidate is not lying to get thru HR filter.

And we can judge developer performance, it just takes 6 months to a year working with a team so it's just hard to get metric

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience benchmarks are pretty meaningless. Not only is performance dependent on the language and tasks gives but also the prompts used and the expected results. In my own internal tests it was really hard to judge whether GPT 5.5 or Opus 4.7 is the better model. They have different styles and it's basically up to preference. There where even times where I gave the win to one model only to think about it more…

In addition, the harness around these models do a lot of work and changes the outcome significantly. I just had an issue where Claude CLI with Opus 4.7 High could not figure out why my Blazor Server program was inert, buttons didn't do anything etc. After several rounds, I opened the web console and found that it failed to load blazor.js due to 404 on that file. I copied the error message to Claude CLI and after anot…

You can fix Claude's laziness by modifying the system prompt. https://gist.github.com/chyzwar/99fe217c3ed336f57c74dcffe371...

Re: Kimi K2.6 just beat Claude, GPT-5.5, and Gemini in a coding challenge

#160

These posts are going to be a constant for the next year, because there's no objective way to compare models (past low-level numbers like token generation speed, average reasoning token amount, # of parameters, active experts, etc). They're all quite different in a lot of ways, they're used for many different things by different people, and they're not deterministic. So you're constantly gonna see benchmarks and test…

That was my thought too. > The Word Gem Puzzle is a sliding-tile letter puzzle. The board is a rectangular grid (10×10, 15×15, 20×20, 25×25, or 30×30) filled with letter tiles and one blank space. Just last week my superior asked to implement that for a customer. /s Maybe some real, real task would be good? Add sone database, some REST, some random JS framework and let it figure out a full-stack task instead of creat…

giving real relatable task like that is memory excercise, not any reasoning excercise. The training dataset have tens of thousands apps like that
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